The Making of a Mob Monster: Roy DeMeo's Dark Origins
Title: The Making of a Mob Monster: Roy DeMeo's Dark Origins
Original Publication Date: 8/23/2023
Transcript URL: https://share.descript.com/view/Dl1OmvVefjj
Description: In this episode, Mustache Chris and Steve delve into the intriguing early life and career of the notorious Roy DeMeo, whose journey into organized crime paved the way for an empire built on fear and brutality. From his humble beginnings on the streets of Brooklyn to his calculated entrance into the Gambino crime family, we uncover the pivotal moments that shaped DeMeo's transformation into a ruthless enforcer and prolific contract killer. Join us as we unravel the layers of deception, ambition, and ruthlessness that defined DeMeo's ascent to power, and explore the shadowy world of organized crime that he would come to dominate with an iron fist. #TrueCrimeTales #MafiaChronicles #CriminalMasterminds #roydemeo #serialkiller
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Begin Transcript:
[00:00:00] Welcome to Organized Crime and Punishment, the best spot in town to hang out and talk about history and crime, with your hosts, Steve and Mustache Chris.
I'm excited again to be joined by Chris to talk about the background of a really infamous and in a sick way. Intriguing Mafia figure Roy DeMeo. Chris and I are jumping into a really the deep end of the Mafia pool here, and we're really glad you joined us today. This episode and the previous episode on Richard Kuklinski, the Iceman, is going to build a lot of background that we'll use to talk about the 2012 movie Iceman.
So let's really get into [00:01:00] it. And I think Roy DeMeo is maybe not a Mafia. He's probably not one of the names that really comes up as one of people's first, like, most known Mafia figures, especially, uh, compared to his contemporary of somebody like John Gotti, but he was really extremely influential in his time, and maybe one of the most intriguing Mafia characters of all time.
What do you think, just like, your first brush and your first blush, I guess you might say, of Roy DeMeo? Yeah, as Luke pointed out, Roy DeMeo isn't, um, as particularly, particularly well known as some of these other Mafia guys. I think one of the reasons is where Hollywood and popular culture tries to present the Mafia as kind of glitz and glamorous to a degree where it almost seems like kind of like a fun thing.
Where, like, when you start reading about Roy DeMeo, it's the exact opposite of that. It's the... Kind of really, [00:02:00] really what the mob is, you know, boiled down to its essence and Roy kind of perfectly represents that where it's, it's not glitz and glamour, uh, glamour, it's, it's rough, it's dirty, it's kind of vile and disgusting.
It's a horror story, really. I mean, if you, if you took away and said that this wasn't real and you just told somebody about a, I mean, not to give away too much, but a place where people go in, they get murdered, and dismembered, and just disappear. It's literally a scene from a horror movie, Ray D'Ameo's life.
Yeah, you know, and it's, it really does come across, yeah, his entire life is, it's like a, kind of like what you would think would be like, almost like a cheesy B kind of horror film. Um, where, you know, this guy is, he's one thing, uh, to certain group of people, but then like when he's not away, when he's [00:03:00] away from those people, he's, he's an upstanding citizen.
It's a really, but you know, this is real. It's a, it's a hundred percent real. I am doing a little bit of ancestry. com. I knew from my family that there was de Mayo's that sort of overarching, uh, family that my family belongs to as my. Great grandmother was, her maiden name was DeMeo, and I tried so desperately to see if I was some connection to Roy, I didn't find it, but it's not that uncommon, it's not that common of a name, I, I'm gonna keep finding out, maybe we'll do an update at some point and see if there's, in some weird way I'm distantly related to Roy DeMeo, but um, really the, the best way to start out trying to dig into Roy DeMeo and try and learn something about him is, His kind of messed up childhood.
Tell us, tell us about Roy DeMeo's really screwed up childhood. Yeah, it [00:04:00] wasn't as bad. It wasn't like, don't get, it wasn't anything like Richard's, but it's, it's, yeah, it's a pretty weird childhood. Like, Roy was, uh... I mean, he would struggle with weight issues his entire life, but growing up, he was picked on for being overweight, but from the other kid, his brother was kind of looked upon as the golden child.
He was going to become the doctor and the family kind of devoted their attention to him and Roy really looked up to him too. And pretty early on, he went to go serve in Vietnam. I believe he volunteered. He wasn't drafted or anything. And he was, uh. He was killed in Vietnam and Roy had a really hard time dealing with this because he didn't really have his older brother there to protect him from the bullies.
So he learned to protect himself. This is he started weightlifting and took up boxing and became. You know pretty known as pretty ruthless street fighter, [00:05:00] but then, you know shortly after his brother, uh passes away he uh, his father dies unexpectedly, too And this is a really weird thing is his mother came up with this idea that she was gonna go back to Italy, you know to be around friends and family and kind of left roy by himself and his you know What was he in his early 20s at the time not even right?
Yeah, that whole thing with Roy's childhood, he's the de Mayo's and they, they kind of spell this out and it's, it's hard to psychoanalyze somebody who's been dead for 40 years and, uh, you know, things that happened 60 years ago, but he, um, he's. His family was successful. His one uncle was a, uh, uh, high ranking prosecutor in Brooklyn.
Another was the head medical examiner of New York City or some part of New York City government. [00:06:00] Uh, so doctors, lawyers. Roy's father was working class, and they lived in a pretty rough and tumble, rough and, uh, rough part of Brooklyn, but a lot of successful people came out of there, so you can't necessarily just say that Roy came from a rough family like Richard Kuklinski, like you had mentioned, but you also can't say it.
So it wasn't all just his background. There was something in Roy, I think, that he, he was mean. And all these things like his brother getting killed in Vietnam and the, the mafia thing that was kind of floating around this rough part of Brooklyn that he lived in, it all kind of got boiled down in him and just.
Brought out the very worst in Roy, I think. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, he, he had to learn to take care [00:07:00] of himself at a pretty young age. And, you know, in comparison to Richard, yeah, this seems like a cake walk, but I mean, that's pretty tragic. His brother died. In Vietnam, and then his father passing away pretty, uh, when he was still young, and then his mom leaving for Italy, and I mean, that to me, I really, I just can't understand the logic in her head, but I mean, maybe she talked to Rory, and Rory told her, you know, just go, but it seems like a really weird choice to make, and Yeah, you know, and he, I believe he ends up becoming like a butcher's apprentice and a delivery driver.
And he does really good at that. And he actually becomes like the best, like, delivery, meat delivery guy. And he ends up earning extra money and learning quickly that he can use this extra money to do, you know, Some, you know, low tier loan sharking. Did you maybe, when I was, when I read that Roy DeMeo's mom brought, I think it was his younger [00:08:00] brother to Italy to go live.
Did you think that maybe there was just some kernel that she was trying to get the younger brother away from Roy? It's, it's very possible. I mean, their mothers know their sons. Probably better than anybody, right? And maybe she saw the direction that Roy was going in and didn't want her youngest son to fall in those, uh, fall in that, uh, type of crowd.
It's very possible. That's another one, you know, the what ifs, but what if Roy's brother had come back from Vietnam as a hero? And Roy, I think that that could have been something where Roy goes and joins the Marines too, and goes to Vietnam, and then we don't have Roy DeMeo, like, I honestly think that it could have been that Roy became so embittered with everything that at that just really critical time in his development, he sees his brother do something [00:09:00] that A lot of people, like, I think the father wasn't so much into the brother joining the marines, but it really, it really did, like, open up all this anger that Roy had clamped down inside of him.
It just gave him a, an escape valve to just say, you know what, screw everything. Steve here again. We are a member of the Parthenon Podcast Network, featuring great shows like Josh Cohen's Eyewitness History and many other great shows. Go to Parthenon Podcast to learn more. And now, here is a quick word from our sponsors.
Yeah, for sure. Especially at a young age, the that type of, uh, tragedy, uh, you know, losing, losing a young brother can trigger those types of emotions. And some people, I mean, it's fairly common for [00:10:00] that to come out of people. Most people are able to, like, reign it back in over time, which they, they go through, like, the that just never happened.
Then I think one other element to the whole story is that the Mafia was really never that far away from where they were, where they were living. I mean, they were living in an area that there was mobsters all over the place. And was it Roy's mom who wound up going to live with Joe Profaci's One of the biggest mafia guys of all times, widowed wife.
Yeah. And it wasn't like, this might get me in a little bit of trouble, but like many Italians, Italian Americans at that time, uh, that we're talking about kind of, they viewed the mob where those are our bad guys. You know what I mean? Where they, it was just something that people grew around with and they grew up around with, and they just kind of accepted it.
It's like every group [00:11:00] has their. You know, quote unquote bad guys and the mob just happens to be our bad guys and you know, it's kind of, um, it's a, I use a comparison. It's kind of like the hell's angels a little bit up here in Canada where, especially in like the Quebec area where it's just something that's just, it's not as bad as it used to be, but it used to be like, really, like All over the place, and it was just everybody kind of knew somebody who was kind of part of the Hells Angels, you know, even if they were just on, you know, the very edges of it, or they're, they knew somebody that knew somebody and I mean, this is kind of how the mob was, and especially in like areas like Brooklyn at the time, where I mean, everyone just kind of, especially if you were Italian, you probably knew somebody who was You know, some, you know, somewhat related to the mob to one degree or another.
And it was, um, you know, you also didn't really trust the federal government and state authorities at the time, too. So you didn't really talk to them about it either. And everybody knew. Kind of what happened to [00:12:00] people that I talked to. I know. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think especially somebody like Roy who had this legitimate part of his family who were at the highest levels of government.
But like you said, nobody in Brooklyn in the 1950s or the 1960s was that far away from some connection to the mafia, even as straight as people wanted to be that it was still, you were. In school, I think, um, I can't remember who was the mobsters that were, that lived just down the street from Roy DeMeo and he would hang out with them.
It might have been the Profaci kids, and I think both of those Profaci kids wound up becoming doctors or lawyers or something legit, but it was, that was it. It was never that far away from being from some connection to the Mafia. Now, Roy clearly doesn't go into the legitimate direction. He fully [00:13:00] embraces the Mafia.
What's kind of his early career? And crime, well, it's like I pointed out, he was a apprentice butcher and he was very good at that. And he was like a delivery boy. And he, you know, we do more deliveries and everybody else. And, you know, he, with the extra cash that you earned from doing this, he would loan money out to, you know, early loan sharking at exorbitant interests.
And then quickly he got into auto car. theft, basically, you know, stealing car parts, stealing cars, um, chop shops. And he was doing this under the Casey family, which is one of the five families, but who are actually more known for, this is the kind of weird part about this story, like the glue Casey family were kind of known more for like these blue collar kind of crimes or the like auto theft and what have you, but, uh, Somebody in the Gambino family, um, named Nino Gaggi sees Roy DeMeo and sees, [00:14:00] you know, this guy's really good at what he does.
He's really effective and he's a good earner and says, well, come join, you know, come with me, come join the Gambino family. You'll make even more money. And this is kind of how his criminal career starts. Yeah, he, Roy, starts off, and like you said, there was the five families, and we've talked about the five families a little bit, but at this point, not all families are equal, and the Lucchesis are kind of a low end mafia doing these things that are kind of low end crimes.
And then Nino Gaggi comes in, and I think that Nino really saw the potential in Roy DeMeo, that Roy DeMeo could make a lot of money. Yeah, and he makes a lot of, makes a ton of money, uh, doing this and this is also the time period where he starts setting up the early part of like the DeMeo crew. And this is where he meets, uh, Chris Rosenberg, who is a pretty [00:15:00] fascinating character.
He's this Jewish guy that grew up in an Italian neighborhood and hated the fact that he was Jewish. You know, you know, basically. Thought of himself as Italian. I mean, he was Italian and anything, but, you know, I guess genetics or race or however you want to view it. And he had this dream that he was going to be the first Jewish guy that was going to be made in the Italian family.
And I mean, I mean, it's pretty ambitious. I mean, they didn't even make, they didn't even make a Meyer Lansky. So he's like, he's, he's a funny guy, not. But not really, because he's, we'll get into it later, he's completely ruthless, but Roy takes him under his wing and kind of views him as his kind of little brother or kind of like a son sort of, and you know, Roy would line up, uh, Chris was also into big into drug dealing, and they'll Roy would loan him out money so he can buy more amounts of drugs.
And Roy would make money and Chris would make money and Joseph and [00:16:00] Patrick Testa and Anthony center. And there were a couple other guys, but those are the three, those are like the, the main guys in the demo crew. And yeah, he goes from there. And I mean, somehow during this time period too, somehow Roy wounds up being like.
Uh, part of the board of directors of a credit union that he uses to, uh, launder money and, um, from his car theft, uh, operations, but also like the drug dealing, uh, operations that he has going on with, uh, Chris Rosenberg. I don't think it's too far to say that Roy was really a criminal genius. He really understood how to make money with all these different things that he did.
I mean, it's really, it's crazy. All the different ways that he was earning money. One thing though, is that at this point in the, the mafia in the seventies, early seventies, the, they say opening up the books is that they weren't. Making a [00:17:00] lot of new mafia members at the time. So there was a lot of people like Roy DeMeo who were not strictly by, by definition in the mafia, they were attached to people like Nino Gaggi, who was a made man, but they weren't, a lot of new people weren't being made at that time.
So you had people like, uh, Roy DeMeo making fabulous amounts of money, but they weren't. Directly a part of the Mafia, which gave them a lot of latitude to do things like drugs and working with with Jews and Irish and all these different other gangs in a way that if they were fully made members of the Mafia, they wouldn't be allowed to do.
Yeah, and it would in the book Murder Machine, they get into this where like Nino we've been is trying to when we get to it, we'll get to when we get to that part. But like Nino is trying to would tell Roy sometimes, you know. You're probably better off not being made because if the, you know, the guys at the top of [00:18:00] the family found out some of the stuff that you were up to, it would, you know, cause a lot of problems for yourself.
But, you know, that we'll get into that, um, um, a little bit later into the podcast. Well, why don't we talk about a little bit right now about Nino Gaggi because he is a really interesting character in this whole thing. Yeah. So. Yeah, Nino, he's a mate guy in the, uh, Gambino crime family. And he, he grew up around the mob, right?
And this has basically been his, uh, his entire life. And he ends up becoming a capo, which is the boss of the, like a crew kind of how it works in the mafia after Gambino dies and Paul Castellano takes over. And. He's like a weird guy because he's, he's, he's old school, but he's not really old school. And I don't know, how would you describe him?
He's, I think that really is, he's the old school in a lot of [00:19:00] ways, but he's also, um, I think he's very American in a lot of ways too. Yeah, I mean, and there's this great story. I don't know if you want to consider it great or not, but like, he got into, uh, an argument with, I believe it was a boxer. I'm trying to remember this guy's name right now.
Oh, Gennaro was his last name. Yeah, Gennaro, and he, like, broke his nose or roughed him up a little bit, and Nino Gaggi just swore revenge, and it took about... 12 years and got his revenge after repeated, repeated attempts of trying to get his revenge on this guy. This is just the type of person like, you know, was an example like the story.
It shouldn't be funny, but it is kind of funny. It seems like something that you would, you know, that would come out of a comedy. You kind of Nino just seemed to a guy like he wanted to think he was Vito Corleone from the Godfather. I mean, he even talked about a lot about that, but he was [00:20:00] Really, a small time hood in a lot of, in most every way, he made a lot of money, but he wasn't very well thought out with it or anything like that, and he wasn't hitting, hitting guys all the time, or, and he screwed up a lot of things, he just, he's a low end.
To me, a low rent mobster. And I'm, I'm glad he's not alive to hear me say that, but he's just not very impressive. Yeah, I would, yeah, I would agree with that, but I mean, he definitely knew he's very like as much, he might not probably wouldn't like this, but he's very much a street guy. Right. Um, and doing like low end crimes and, you know, stuff that's not particularly glamorous.
But I mean, if you do read this book, Murder Machine, I suggest you look into it too. Is the, it might not sound sexy, you know, doing chopped cars and selling used car parts and stealing cars, but you would [00:21:00] not believe the amount of money that's involved in these types of operations. And, uh, I mean, I think Nino would probably, is probably the best boss that Roy would have because Nino's the type of guy, he's just going to turn a blind eye to most of the stuff that Roy was up to, um, minus maybe one thing that we'll get into a little bit.
But even then, you know, just kind of, you know, yelled at Roy a bit and then just kind of let Roy do his own thing again. I think Nino, all Nino was concerned with was money, whatever was happening, he just wanted. And he was a really bottom line kind of guy. He didn't want a lot of stuff getting in the way of the bottom line.
Loan sharking is a really interesting part of the mafia because it really is the nitty gritty. And like you said, it's the not very sexy part of the mafia, but that's where they made a Loaning money out at these [00:22:00] exorbitant rates where people would have to pay huge interest balloon payments. We might call them now called the VIGs once a week of.
You know, huge percentages of the, of the, uh, base amount that the, the people would take out. And they would really have to take out another loan shark loan to be able to just pay the interest on these loans. And it was kind of a, once you got into that system of taking out a loan shark loan, you were never gonna get out of it.
Yeah, and people like Roy would use it too, or, okay, like, okay, whatever, you're never gonna pay, be able to pay your loan again. Okay, so I'm part of your business now, 50%, or in the case of the Gemini Lounge, the guy who had actually owned the bar. The time had a loan out, uh, for Roy and he was never going to be able to pay it off.
So Roy said he saw an opportunity. It's like, oh, this is where I can do my business. It's got an apartment in the [00:23:00] back and you know, it's, uh, it's a nice place. I like it. I don't get whatever, give me your bar, just send your bar off to me. And that's it. We'll call it even. And that, that a lot of the times, this is how these mob guys would build up.
These little bars, these people would take loans out of 5% of the business or 50% or just the entire thing.
Steve here again with a quick word from our sponsors. Let's talk about Andre Katz. That was one of the first big murders that Roy DeMeo was involved with. And it was one of the first ones that really got a lot of police attention put on him. Yeah, so Andre Katz was he was involved in the chop shop business with Roy and it's not exactly sure what happened or he ends up getting busted with and Chris Rosenberg was there too and some People say it was like related [00:24:00] to the drugs that Chris Rosenberg was selling at the time.
And, but Andre Katz just kind of comes to the conclusion. He's like, well, I'm not going to jail for these guys and, you know, volunteers to go talk to the authorities about, you know, the chop shop and the drug, the drug business that was going on in his, uh, in his, uh, facilities. Roy finds out that he was doing this because Roy had paid, uh, police officers off in the stolen vehicles department of the NYPD.
I'm not exactly sure what the department's called, but this is what they, they specialize in stolen vehicles and said that, you know, Katz is talking and Roy comes up with this plan. Well, we can, he knows too much, we got to get rid of them. So they, they hired this, this young lady to lure. Cats into I believe it was like a hotel or something and Roy and his crew kidnap them and then they end up, um, killing them at [00:25:00] the this meet at this, uh, supermarket and dispose of the body.
And this is where the Gemini methods kind of. Slowly starts where, you know, they chop the body up and they start, you know, depositing parts and various dumps around the city, but they don't do it quite well this time because apparently some pedestrians saw like a leg, um, sticking out of a trash can or something.
And then, um, they end up learning that they have to become, you know, more efficient, cleaner at this. And this is, um, we're going to be getting into some things that are definitely not family. Friendly, so to speak. And we're not going to be graphic with it at all, but this is very brutal stuff and I would definitely suggest that maybe for the next, uh, couple of minutes you screen this for content if you're listening in the minivan, but the Gemini method, that Gemini was the name of the club that Roy had.
Taken over [00:26:00] through his loan sharking and so the, this crew of really psychotic killers that Roy gathers together and the very broad strokes and we don't really need to get into all the nitty gritty people can read a murder machine and there's plenty of other information out there on, uh, on the specifics on how they killed people at the Gemini, but in general, what were they doing?
At the Gemini. Yeah. So they use the jump. They was called the Gemini method because it took place in the Gemini lounge and they would lure people into the back apartment, which was at the, you can look up pictures. You can see the Gemini lounge. You can see this for the apartment building was they would lure people back there and.
Basically, without getting into like a ton of the details, because it's, it's rough stuff. Um, they came up with, they pretty much the most efficient way and cleanest way of getting rid of somebody who was [00:27:00] trouble and disposing of the body. So there was, there was really no way to, if there was no body, there was no crime at the end of the day.
They, they, the cops could be like, well, we, we saw him go into the Gemini, Gemini lounge. Roy could be, well, you know, he left. You know, a couple hours later, and then the cops just let, if they can't find a body, they have no, they have nothing to pursue. And this was highly effective. You know, there's different reports about, you know, did Roy and his crew kill up to 200 people, 100 people.
I didn't think it was probably around 100. I think it was 47 or 49, they can officially confirm we're done by the DeMayo crew, but, you know, to kind of put this in perspective, nobody really had taken industrial murder. Um, nobody had done this since pretty much, you know, Murder Incorporated. Yeah, they would, um, they would really dispose of the bodies.
They had a garbage dump and... [00:28:00] Nobody's going, those garbage dumps, like in New York City, they're getting feet of garbage piled every single day in there. And so, I mean, if you don't know about something, if you want to look for something that happened a week ago, you could be digging through hundreds of feet of garbage.
It's just never going to happen. You know, no police department in the world has the tools to do that. Yeah, and they were at one point they did think about, like, start digging through this garbage later on when they were trying to find some of these bodies so they could pin more, you know, crimes on Roy and they, I, they looked at and they said, like, this is just not possible.
There's no way to do it. I mean, and if you know, you look into how they came up with the Gemini method and then the disposal of the body is, is School ish, but I mean, it is brilliant. It worked for the amount of murders that these guys were [00:29:00] doing, you know, and Roy was personally, personally did a lot of these murders himself.
I mean, so if we're looking at like a hundred people. Let's just say, let's just say, let's just say it's a hundred people. I mean, how many did the Green River killer kill? Nowhere near that, I don't think. I mean, you could say that, like, Roy was one of the worst, if not the worst, like, serial killers in American history, depending on how you look at it.
I wouldn't say Roy was a serial killer just because there's a little... I don't really want to, you know, compare and contrast, but I mean, in terms of just the body count, yeah, it's like a hundred people. That's in Ted Bundy wasn't anywhere near that. It's also, I think that this is a good place to really mark that Roy, the Roy, the businessman as a mafia guy, he saw within this time period, if I'm not mistaken, he does get his button.
Or he gets, becomes a maid member of the mafia, kind of [00:30:00] against, not everybody wanted him to become a maid man. No, uh, well, so, Bino dies, and Paul Castellano becomes the head of the family, and so the books open up. And Roy is bonding, you know, get me, you know, get me my button, get me my button. I've earned and I've earned it.
I mean, and for the family, he, you know, he was taking murder contracts and he was doing all the dirty work that nobody else really, well, it's not that nobody else really wanted to do. It was just nobody else was doing it as good as Roy was. And Paul kind of looked down at these street guys. He didn't really like being associated with them.
And I mean, that's not. But, I mean, that's not fair from, you know, from Paul to be saying that, because he would take their money anyways. Uh, but the 1 thing that Paul was like, Roy, he's uncontrollable. He's this guy is a loose cannon and I can't really. I can't really trust him so Paul didn't [00:31:00] really want to make him a made man and so Roy comes to the conclusion well I just got to make even more money and then they can't possibly deny me.
And he opens up an alliance with the Westies who are a pretty infamous gang of the, I believe it's the Hell's Kitchen area of New York. They're like the Irish mob and by opening up this alliance with The Westies, he's able to, um, he opens up like construction contracts, which is what Paul was really into.
He was more into like the labor union type stuff, the more white collar crimes. And the Westies end up becoming kind of like a, an arm of the Gambino family because of. Uh, Roy DeMeo and, uh, Nino Gaggi setting up a meeting between, I can't remember the head of the Westies at the time, him and Paul Castellano, and later on, Roy ends up becoming the, the, the goal between, between the Gambino family and the Westies in terms of [00:32:00] just all business deals.
And this is like a pretty huge deal because the Westies are infamous game because of their brutality, but they also controlled like a. They had a lot of power in New York at the time, and this is basically, because Roy's able to pull this off, Paul really can't deny making him a, a maid guy anymore, and he gets his maid status.
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