Game of Crimes: Mafia Hitman or Serial Killer
Title: Game of Crimes: Mafia Hitman or Serial Killer
Original Publication Date: 9/20/2023
Transcript URL: https://share.descript.com/view/ryW2CowG6ow
Description: Join Mustache Chris and Steve are joined today by veteran police officer and crime fiction author Frank (https://www.frankzafiro.com) to play the game: Mafia Hitman or Serial Killer. You can play at home and see if you can beat us! Send us your score and thoughts on the fuzzy line between two different kinds of mass murders.
#TrueCrime #MafiaMysteries #SerialKillers #CrimePsychology #CriminalProfiling
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Begin Transcript:
[00:00:00] Welcome back to a really special episode of Organized Crime and Punishment. This episode, we are going to wrap up Season 1 of Organized Crime and Punishment, where we really talked a lot about the murder involved with the Mafia. And the way we're going to wrap it up is with a little... We're going to play the in show style of Serial Killer or Mafia Member.
So we're joined by our crew member, Frank Scalise. I believe this is, we've recorded other episodes with Frank, but this is the first time you're actually meeting Frank. It's kind of weird the way that lined up. But this is our first introduction to Frank, you're going to learn a lot more about Frank in future series.
We are also joined by none other than our very own Mustache Chris. And Mustache Chris is going to take the hosting duties today, and he is going to be our host in our game show [00:01:00] of Mafia Member or Serial Killer. Yeah, we, we'd been, we thought about coming, we came up with this idea and we thought it'd be a little bit fun and then, uh, we got in touch with Frank and figured, you know, this would be a good episode to have Frank come on for, and this is one of those tougher questions when it comes to the mob, but I suppose, but I suppose crime in general, like the difference between, say, a mafia hitman and a serial killer can become pretty blurry.
Like, Many mob hitmen, uh, have a much higher body count than most serial killers, like, um, you know, mob hitmen also, like, are notorious for, like, cutting up the bodies after the fact to help. You know, with the help, uh, have them not get caught, obviously, right? You know, throwing the body parts in dumps and stuff like that.
Uh, but, uh, the truth of the matter is, uh, many of the mob hitmen, they enjoyed killing people. And some of them... Some of them it comes across like they just kind of saw it as a [00:02:00] job like, uh, you know, if you look at the likes of, say, Harry Strauss or Roy DeMaio, we were looking at, you know, body counts that go high above even the Green River Killer, who I believe still in American history is, has the highest, uh, body count.
You know, the typical argument that I, uh, find is people say, like, well, serial killers enjoy, like, sadistically killing their victims, whereas mob hitmen tend to just get the job done as quickly as possible. And I think, for the most part, that generalization is, uh, Is correct, but there there's examples where it doesn't entirely fit.
What do you guys think? Well, uh, this is Frank here, uh, saying hello to your audience for the 1st time. We'll chat some more in future episodes. And, uh, but for this 1, I, I think I would say that the difference between a serial killer and a mob hitman. Is a matter of compulsion. I think that most [00:03:00] people that and let me back up a step.
I think you could clearly label a mob hit man as a serial killer by the letter of the definition. I mean, they meet the criteria, but I think in popular parlance when we say serial killer. We're not talking about a mob hit man, you know, and so the difference to me is that compulsion, a serial killer kills from a very deep place that they're compelled to do so for sadistic and psychological, uh, reasons that are pretty terrible.
Um, and while I guess some hit hit men might enjoy their work, I think it's a job 1st and a hobby 2nd and it's, it's not that way for serial killer at all. And I should mention, uh, even though we will more properly introduce Frank in future episodes, Frank's not just shooting from the hip here, Frank was a 20 year career police officer and a crime fiction writer, so he definitely [00:04:00] comes to this with some cred.
Although I was never a homicide investigator, so I might just be full of crap, but I have to, I have to agree with frank on this is that I think it comes from a different place. Like you said, there's probably mafia hit man and people in that who enjoy. Killing, but it's not there. The killing for enjoyment, I think, comes secondary to the business aspect.
I mean, there's I had never I haven't seen many studies of this, but there are people who were in the military who kind of blurred the line. And I think in any business where killing is a part of the, uh, Is basically a job requirement. You're going to draw in some people who might not be there for the best of intentions, but it still is the secondary aspect of it.
Yeah, I also think, like, if you look at some examples of serial killers, they tend [00:05:00] to, like, inflict, like, extreme sadistic pain on their victims, or do, you know, entirely weird things with the bodies afterwards, or, like you say, you look at somebody like Jeffrey Dahmer, and Dahmer, his whole M. O. was, I wanted to get the killing is over.
As quickly as possible. He didn't like that part of it, but he would make works of art with the bodies. He would, uh, you know, eat them, right? And from all, from all I've read about the mob, I haven't come across a hitman that did. Stuff like that. But then we consider, say, somebody like David Berkowitz is considered a serial killer.
And what did he do? He just simply just walked up to people in cars or on the streets and shot them. And that's, you know, that's all he did. Um, But as serial killer go, serial killers go, he's kind of a little bit of an oddball. I mean, not all serial killers, um, for sure, but a lot of them have a sexual component to, to their killing, even if they're not.
Doing those acts, there's a [00:06:00] psychosexual component there. Um, yeah, kind of melded with the whole power dynamic and everything else. And so, you know, I, I, I, I hear the expert on the mob stuff, but I don't know if there's too many mob guys that even if they're enjoying the power of being a killer and taking a life, I don't know that they're getting a sexual thrill or satisfaction out of it.
Not, not too many. Like there, there's, We just finished a series on Murder, Inc., and one of the guys was, uh, he enjoyed it. I mean, there's no way to sugarcoat it. He was a sexual predator, right? And he enjoyed it, uh, um, I'm trying to think of, um, oh, his name is escaping me right now, but Pauly from, um, the movie Goodfellas, the actual character, Paul Vario, he was, uh, I believe he was convicted of rape twice, um, so he, there was no component there, but it's not something that, uh, I've come across a ton of, but there are examples of, uh, um, there are a few examples of, of it.
So, uh, are [00:07:00] you gonna, are, would you be willing to say that it's more of the outlier than the, the rule? Yeah, I would say, like, generally, like, the, the, I would say the rule is, like, as Frank pointed out, serial killers kind of have a compulsion, um, I would say serial killers enjoy inflicting, like, kind of a sadistic pain on their, uh, victims, and, or doing weird things after the fact with the body, um, And there's a sexual component to it all, right?
That goes kind of, well, I mean, it's a dominance factor, obviously, right? But, uh, um, I believe it goes a little bit further than that, uh, but there are, I would say that's generally the rule, uh, the difference between, say, a hitman and, and, um, Like a serial killer, but there's there's examples outliers, uh, like David Berkowitz is an example of this.
I mean, you look at somebody like Rory DeMeo and depending on who you're talking to, this guy probably maybe killed up towards [00:08:00] 150 people. Now, he was doing it strictly as business, like you could say, but he was definitely enjoying what he was doing. Um, but yeah, but there's always kind of exceptions to the rules.
And I, I mean, I, that's where I kind of find it. A little bit of a fascinating subject because, uh, it's those exceptions that makes you pause and think and go, you know, I mean, could we like, it's weird that we don't consider Roy DeMeo is the say the highest have the highest body count and, you know, for killing and in the United States, but we consider the Green River killer.
I mean, I don't know. It's interesting to think about to me. I mean, yeah, he was killing other criminals. He wasn't. Yeah. Killing prostitutes and defenseless women, but I mean, he was still killing people to me. It really boils down to the job aspect of it. And obviously I disagree with the, that it's a criminal job and it's bad, but it was still a job function for him.
And he [00:09:00] did get enjoyment out of his work. But DeMeo. He all, uh, towards the end, he seemed psychologically damaged by his lifestyle, where I think most of the serial killers, and I'm no expert in that by any stretch of the imagination, but any of the serial killers that I've seen are not psychologically damaged by the things that they've done.
They're almost proud of it when they get busted. Yeah. If anything, it's, it's fulfilling something that they need to fulfill or they feel like they need to fulfill. It's almost the opposite. I'm in the green river killer when he got, um, when he got caught, he was like chumming it up with the police. Like he was, you know, like they were finally on the same team or something.
Like he had no idea. And, uh, uh, Dennis Raider, the, the btk killer, he was kind of the same way. Like he just didn't. Well, it was like all the games up now. Yeah. And then there's like [00:10:00] even a, even another example as a curve ball, you know, you look at somebody like the Zodiac killer, you know, they never found out who it was, but he's like a mixture where like, he would like, I don't know, he would like tie people up and like make them wait for a while.
And then like, there's other times you just, you just straight up shot people. And it's like, I don't know what's going on there. That one's always kind of perplexed me. I'm, I, I'm not entirely convinced it was one guy that did all of that, but yeah. I think it might've been a couple of different people that use like the Zodiac thing, uh, to make the police think that maybe it was one guy doing it all, but I don't, I'm not a police officer.
I didn't investigate the case, but, um, I just use that as an example. I was doing some research, uh, quite recently for, uh, one of the books I'm working on now, and I was curious, like how many serial killers are solo and how many. You know, how many partner up and as best I could find with, uh, the assistance of detective Google, um, it's [00:11:00] about 10% of serial killers are multiples are couples usually.
And they're, uh, more often romantic couples than not, but not always. So 90% of serial killers are lone wolves. This is what it comes down to there. Yeah, which in the case of Mob Hitman, they're not doing it by themselves, they're using, I mean, it's usually one person doing the hit, but it's usually multiple people in terms of disposing the body and, um, even setting up the hit.
And that probably is a psychological way to boost up each other's confidence to do something that's really unnatural, you know, for most people, is to kill another human being. Why? I mean, it's perverse, uh, way of looking at masculinity that's in the mob, right? Then they call it making your bones, right?
But like, you know, you got to be a real man, you know, kill somebody and not care about it. Um, and in a lot of ways, it's kind of how cults work, right? Like they, they break you down, right? And then they screw up your [00:12:00] sense of morality. And instill their own sense of morality. I mean, my saying that the mob is a cult, but in terms of like alternative societies and, um, say, I don't know, use an example like the Freemasons, right?
Uh, secret societies. This is kind of what they do to people. It's kind of necessary to really join it. All right, with this prelude, uh, why don't we jump into the, your first scenario, Chris, where you explain a situation and then Frank and I are going to try and decide whether it is a serial killer or a member of the mafia, and we will be keeping score.
You didn't tell me we were keeping score. We have a man that, uh, that is hanged on a meat hook by his feet. And then how does his face wrapped and, uh. Uh, wrappings that have been, uh, smeared in gonorrhea [00:13:00] discharge causing him to go blind. If you had to guess, was this the, uh, mob job or was this done by a serial killer?
Now Steve, you want to alternate who goes first so that we keep it fair? I'll let you go first, Frank, because I remember this one. Oh, you do? This one really stuck with me, so. Uh, this sounds very vengeful, and it sounds like something somebody would do to make a point. Like, maybe they saw something they shouldn't see, or, or something.
Uh, it sounds to me like a, a mob hit. And not the work of a serial killer. I'm gonna go with serial killer. I'll give, uh, Frank a head start on this one. This is actually, it was, this was done by Dutch Schultz and, uh, and his, uh, his partner. Uh, quite early in his career. Uh, so I guess I'll go on to question 2.
Oh, wait, did you, did you, did you actually know that one? And did you, did you throw that round? I [00:14:00] threw that one for you. Oh, that's bull, man. No, I'm amending the score. Alright, we'll call this one a wash. Score's 1 to 1. I don't want any handicaps if I win. If I win, I want it to mean something. If I lose, I want it to be real.
Even though we're from all over North America, once, um, one of us lands in one of our areas, we'll owe each other one a beverage of their choice. That sounds like a fair bet to me. Steve here again. We are a member of the Parthenon Podcast Network, featuring great shows like Josh Cohen's Eyewitness History and many other great shows.
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Alright, so question two. Uh, when asked what happened to the body after [00:15:00] it was shot, this person in a deadpan fashion simply replied, I cut his heart out. If you had to take a guess, was this a reply from a serial killer or a mob member? I'm up first for this one. I, um, I'm gonna say, that sounds very Mafia like to me.
I'm gonna cut out your hearts. Unless, yeah, I'm going with Mafia. Yeah, I have to agree that that's, that's, uh, that sounds like a cold, hard hit man and who, uh, is, is taking care of business for the cop. Oh, it was actually, yes, it was, uh, it was Dutch souls again. He, uh, he shot his, uh, former bodyguard and, uh, his lawyer saw him do it.
And the lawyer actually later saw that the body was, it was somewhere on the side of the road or in the newspaper was saying that the heart had been ripped out and he goes to Dutch. Yeah. What's, what's going on here? Like, I, I saw you shot him, kill him, but what's with the heart? And he's just like, Oh, I ripped his heart out.
Don't worry [00:16:00] about it. I cut out his heart. Forget about it. Dutch really did walk the line. Yeah, I really, he really did. Like he's, yeah, he's. Crazy. On to question three. Here we have a man that was kidnapped and then tortured for hours, being sodomized, cut up, and then was ritualistically killed in a human sacrifice.
If you had to guess, was this done by a serial killer, or... The mob. Well, unless this was the familiar satanist or something, you know, I, it doesn't sound very mob. Like to me, this sounds like a, like a, uh, serial killer and, and, uh, maybe a devil worshiper and a little satanic panic coming true here. So I'm going to go with serial killer on this one.
Yeah, I think I have to go with Serial Killer, the same one. That's, uh, very, very bizarre. And I could see maybe Arthur Flangenheimer might go, he'd go [00:17:00] maybe 80%, but I don't think he'd go full 100% of that scenario. Well, I gotta break it to you guys. You guys are both wrong. This is actually done by Adolfo Constanzo and he was famous for running a drug cartel in Mexico.
That also was a cult that ritualistically sacrificed, uh, their victims and the guy that he killed was, uh, was, uh, Mark Kilroy. He was an American. And this is eventually kind of what brought this, uh. This drug cartel down. Um, kind of reminds me a little bit, I don't know if you guys have seen the movie Predator 2.
Yeah, it kind of reminds me a little bit, like this, this Mexican drug cartel that was also like a human sacrificing devil worshipping cult is uh, I'm, I'll be completely honest with you. I'm surprised more people don't know about it just because it's such a crazy story. I mean, there's a movie about it too, and I [00:18:00] haven't watched the movie.
Maybe I'll watch it tonight. Um, yeah. Is the movie Sicario? Is that what you're talking about? No, it's, uh, uh, yeah, it's a Sicario. I watched some mass murder going on in that movie. Yeah. Um, yeah, and then they, uh, yeah, they killed like a, a, a number, like a fair amount of people in this fashion. And it kind of reminds me of, uh, that, that movie Predator Two, uh, with the, the Jamaican Voodoo Gang, that's, I don't know, they're like ripping people's hearts out and stuff like that.
I don't know if you guys seen The Predator two of Danny Glover. Yeah. Um mm-hmm. . That's kind of what reminds me of a little bit. When was that approximately then that murder, and when did they operate? 1989 was when they, uh, they killed Mark Kilroy. And this is the one that was the murder. That was the that was the thing is they went after Americans and that's pretty much like as soon as they found the [00:19:00] body and stuff like that.
And they found out what was going on there. The Americans are like, okay, well, we got to take care of this. If they had maybe just stuck to other Mexicans, they who knows how long. They would have been around for. I mean, it's crazy to think, like, these guys were bringing in, like, crazy amounts of money running a cartel.
They had tons of weapons. They're all high on blow. And they're devil worshippers. You know, it's almost like they're channeling the old Aztec spirit or something like that. Like, the old Aztecs, like, ripping arts out and stuff. There was a video game, um, it wasn't Call of Duty, it was Ghost Recon, in Ecuador, that was about a, uh, fictionalized, uh, cartel gang that had like a, a worship of, it was a, like, Catholic worship, but with like, um, Wildlands, which is the game.
Pardon? Wildlands is why it's such a good game, and it's loosely based on a Mexican gang, and I think they just that gang that it was [00:20:00] loosely based in just had like a really nasty hit in Mexico within a couple of months of our recording, maybe even a couple of weeks. So that kind of stuff is still going on.
Oh, yeah, for sure. You know, it's, um, I just thought that would be because it sounds totally like something that, you know, serial killers were doing, but it was actually a drug cartel that was doing it. I mean, and it shows you kind of like the blurry lines were like 100%. I would consider this guy a serial killer, but I mean, he was running a drug cartel.
He was also running a call. It's just one of those outliers that kind of blurs the lines. Uh, yeah. Between, uh, what we were talking about earlier. Yeah, because it doesn't sound like the purpose of what they were doing had anything to do with their mob activity. So, um, I'm going to ask the judges to reconsider if we were actually wrong or not.
I, yeah, I don't, I, to [00:21:00] me, you call them either one, right? I mean, you know, they're running the cartel to help fund the, the, uh, devil worshiping cults, you know, it's, uh, You know, I don't know, it's, it's crazy to me, like, people are so dismissive of stuff like the, just a little bit of a tangent, like, some of the stuff that, like, gets talked about, like, during the satanic panic, and then you, you know, you start digging into it a little bit, and you start realizing, it's like, well, I don't know, I mean, some people are acting crazy, but, like, a lot of the stuff, I don't know if they were acting totally crazy, you know, this would be something that, I think people would just dismiss out of hand if I had to say told somebody at work, I'm like, Oh yeah, did you know about this like devil worshiping drug cartel that was like ritualistically sacrificing human beings?
It would have been like, Oh yeah, Chris, you're just, you're just pulling her leg. You're screwing around. You know, like that, that didn't happen. It's like, no, it did. And it probably is still going on now. I'm sure there's weird, like, secret societies in some of these cartels, they're so big, you know, it's very [00:22:00] difficult to probably, uh, you know, keep an eye on everything that's going on in them.
I'd say give us a half a point for that one, 2. 5 to 2. 5. Yeah, I guess. Pays to complain. So, yeah, number four. Uh, here we have a man that was very meticulous about how he went about his work. This man carried a special toolkit around with him at all times that he would, uh, that would help him, uh, dismember bodies.
He would make sure that each body part was either wrapped in plastic or were put in suitcases and buried deep enough so that dogs couldn't find them. This person had one weakness though, and that's, and that was he enjoyed, uh, keeping personal items of the victims that he killed. Was this a mob guy or was this a serial killer?
Who's up for this one first? You got, you got evens. Okay. Um, you know, I think for me keeping the personal mementos, like everything, I [00:23:00] think any one of those things, or maybe like two or three of them could have been, Oh, that's a mafia guy. But I think the totality of that I'm going with serial killer. I should make a great point there, Steve.
Um, you know, carrying the tool around sounds like a professional mob guy. That's just, you know, ready to rock and roll as soon as he needs to the meticulous nature of how he dismembered and stored the bodies and buried him. So they wouldn't be discovered, which is a little bit interesting because while serial killers tend to be really careful.
Sometimes they get sloppy on purpose, like, I mean, they want people to know these people got killed and not know who did it. That's part of the power rush. So he's trying to avoid being, you know, being discovered, but that that keepsake thing, that is a hallmark of serial killers. So you are bang on there.
So for the purposes of, uh, Breaking the tie one way or the other here, I am going to go with, uh, the mobster. Well, Frank, you're [00:24:00] right. Oh ho ho! It's, uh, Tommy Karate, who's a famous Bonanno, uh, hitman. He's also got the nickname Tommy Karate because he was really good at karate, too, and he studied in, uh, Japan and the whole deal, and he was really physically fit.
Um, yeah. But he would keep personal items of the people that he killed, uh, which... That's totally a serial killer thing. He really enjoyed what he did, right? Um, I don't know, you know, was he, to me, that sounds like a serial killer. I mean, he was getting paid to do it. Um, but it's one of those examples where it's just like, oh, so was he a hitman or was he, you know, was he just a serial killer that was getting paid?
I think the only thing that would make the difference in my mind in this situation here is, was he choosing his victims or are they being assigned to him? If they're being assigned to him, he's a serial killer. If he's just seeking him out, then obviously, or I'm sorry, if they're being assigned to him, he's a mobster.
And then if he's [00:25:00] picking him himself, then that's a hobby, which makes him a serial killer. Um, that, that personal item thing though, that's a, yeah. That's, uh, uh, honestly, if I had gone first, I would have said, I would have said the same thing. Steve did. Yeah, that really is. I mean, that's, I guess that maybe if, did they, did you in your research, did you ever see a motivation for that?
What was that? A, a thing to almost like. A trophy because I could see almost with the mafia person like wanting to keep a trophy of pride, but not in a in a sick way. I mean, that's sick no matter what, how you dice it. But it is a little different that he thought of himself. I mean, I'm really stretching here, but as a hunter, almost the.
Well, I mean, I guess he could show people after the fact, it's like, yo, you remember, uh, you know, remember Tommy DeSimone or what have you, you know, you know, that necklace that he used to carry around with him on all the times and go look in that drawer right there, you know, I have [00:26:00] it, I'm, I'm sure he probably did that enough times, you know, he's the one who whacked Tommy DeSimone, no, I just used him as an example, I just used him as an example, it's like the first Italian name that came to my head, um, Um, but I'm sure he did that, you know, I mean, he killed a lot of people, he, he probably kept mementos for the same reason that a serial killer does.
And it's a, it's a matter of having something physical to connect to the event to relive the fantasy and, and. You know, there's no reason he couldn't have been doing it for the same reason, uh, he, you know, what he was reliving might be a little different, but, uh, it sounds, sounds like it was the same purpose that those mementos were fulfilling.
Boy, though, you couldn't, I would be hard pressed to believe that somebody like that didn't go and find people to kill outside of contracts. Yeah. Little side, little side hobby, maybe. Yeah. Trying to find his, uh, his total body count. Yeah, see I'm reading [00:27:00] here and it's um, they're saying as many as 60, you know, so obviously a lot of them were assigned, but some of them he was probably just did him on, did, did his own, right?
Uh, I mean, what was the Green River Killer at? I mean, that's just him, Green River. What was he at, about 200? I 100? That sounds, that sounds right to me. There was some, when you get that high in a body count, there's always some, was this really by that person or wasn't it sort of discussion that starts taking place with some victims, you know, um, but he may have, he may have verified all of them.
I don't recall. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean he did them right. He might have just decided to inflate his own body count. Yeah, so the Green River Killer, he was actually convicted of 49. Right, those were the slam dunk cases they had, yeah. And he confessed and is suspected of 71 to 90. So let's just say [00:28:00] 80, right?
Uh, Tommy Karate killed 60. And he was killing guys that were, you know, legitimate tough guys, like other criminals. You know, he wasn't just picking on women. It's um, you know, it's fascinating. Um, 60 plus though, that's one of the highest in, in the history of the mob. It has to be. I mean, uh, Roy DeMille killed more.
Harry Strauss killed more. I mean, Richard Kavinsky, whether you believe him or not, he obviously killed a lot of people himself. Um, you know, and you keep personal items of these people. I mean, I don't know. He's a serial killer. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's going on my, that's going on my point list.
All right. So next question. Okay, I think so. Frank pulled ahead. Frank is at 3. 5 and I'm at 2. 5. This, I think this one will be a little bit easier. Here we have a man that would abduct younger women, where he would take them to his home and rape them. He would later release them in the wild, where he would hunt [00:29:00] them like wild animals, either shooting them or stabbing them.
Was this a mob guy or a serial killer? How could this be a mob guy? This has got to be a serial killer. If this is a mob guy, then he's got a whole lot of, uh, flexibility from his boss and how he does his job. I, I mean, I have to go with serial killer too. Yeah, it is, uh, it's, uh, Robert, uh, Robert Hanson, who was, uh, the famous, uh, serial killer in Alaska, and that would, uh, I mean, I think there's been a couple of movies that kind of loosely based on him, but, uh, yeah, he was famous for, like, literally hunting his victims, like wild animals in the middle of Alaska, and then sometimes he'd just leave the bodies there, and then, you know, animals would come and, you know, take care of it.
You know, the, uh, HBO show, True Detective, that. Uh, has a 4th season coming out with, uh. Jody Foster in the lead role. It's called night country and it's set up in Alaska. And this is, this is the kind of serial [00:30:00] killer that would be perfect for that kind of a show, you know, doing that kind of stuff. I don't know the plot.
I have only seen a very vague preview of it, like a little teaser, 15 second preview or whatever, but it'd be kind of funny if this was actually the kind of the basis for their bad guy in season four. Yeah, a little like, sorry, just a little tangent. I was going to say, like, uh, you're talking about True Detectives, like the first season's the best.
The second season was, uh, so so. I actually quite enjoyed the third season. A lot, actually. Most people figure it's one, one, three, two is their order of preference for the most part. And the, the third season reminds me a lot of, um, the Franklin credit union scandal, which is, uh, I mean, I don't know. Maybe one day we can go down that road because that was organized crime and punishment or lack thereof punishment.
And it's a, it's a, it's a really, um, big conspiracy, but sorry, what were you saying, Steve? Alaska is such a like [00:31:00] perfect setting for some for a serial killer. The backwoods, the creepiness of either being all day or all night. I mean, you couldn't imagine the chances of finding if you're in the backwoods or probably anywhere between.
Uh, any, anything other than like two cities, there's never gonna be a cop to help you or anything. I mean, I couldn't imagine. I mean, that's why like some of the creepiest ones have happened in places like Russia. Because it's just open season. Oh yeah, for sure, you know, like, I mean, there's so many, there's so few people there, this guy could just release women that he had just raped in the wild and have them go run and scream and literally no one's gonna hear them.
That's how isolated much of Alaska is from everything else. It's, uh, yeah, it's a perfect setting for, you know, like a sick cycle like that. Definitely sick. I mean, just on so many levels. You know, so I guess, uh... We'll go on to [00:32:00] question six. This one, I think that maybe this one you guys might have a little difficulty with.
While awaiting his death sentence, uh, by hanging, this person said this as their final words. Hurry it up, you, uh, Hoosier bat. How do you pronounce that? Hoosier? Hoosier. Hoosier? Hoosier. Is that like an American thing, or? Hoosier. It's in Indiana. It's, uh, Indiana, right? Yeah. For the basketball. Yeah. It's the, it's the, it's like, uh, like it's a type of person from the early settlers days, I think, isn't it?
Uh, when, when they first started settling Indiana, they became known as Hoosiers and then became the. Motto for the sports teams. Laters. I should probably Google that so that I don't sound like an idiot. It's actually a flower or something. Yeah. I think that sounds a legitimate. I told you while waiting, uh, his death sentence by hanging.
This person said as their last final [00:33:00] words. Um, yes, hurry it up. You, uh, who's your bastard. I could kill a dozen men while you're, while you're screwing around one. Was this a mob guy's last words or was this a serial killer's last words? And so this one's on me. Oh man, I am going to say serial killer just because not a ton of mafia guys got the, the death penalty that I've read.
At least, I mean, some did and. I, I never heard of a, that seems like a major one that would come out of Indiana. So I am going to go serial killer for this one. And what, what do you think, Frank? Yeah, I'm mulling around whether I want to go opposites again and risk letting Steven catch up here. Uh, do you risk letting him catch up or do you pull into the lead by two?
Um. You know, the, what he said there sounds very much like something a mobster would say, you know, I [00:34:00] mean, uh, but yeah, I'm going to chicken out. I think it's a serial killer as well. Well, you're both right. Uh, this was, uh, Carl Panzer Rams, uh, last words and Carl Panzer Rams, like one of the early, uh, American serial killers, but he's also another guy that kind of blurs the line a little bit.
Cause he was also like a criminal. So, like, he would rob people, and he had, like, all different types of little scams, but, um, he also, like, killed a lot of people, and he was, like, tough as nails. He actually wrote a book, um, which is a very interesting read, because for a guy that was not... Very well educated, he's actually a pretty good writer, he has this like, uh, it's very, kind of, really kind of perfectly exemplifies like somebody who basically took like a nihilistic worldview and just basically took it to its logical conclusion, really, um, it's a very, uh, blunt way of writing, but it, It's it's actually really [00:35:00] effective.
I've read it. Um, and yeah, he's, uh, he's pretty fascinating guy. Like I said, he's kind of a criminal, but he's also a serial killer. He claims that he was in Africa for a bit. He was, uh. He was a homosexual, even though I'm pretty sure he denied that he was a homosexual, but he almost exclusively just had sex with men, um, or, or sodomize them as he said it, because that's basically what he was doing was raping men, uh, and killing them afterwards sometimes, but not all the time, um, or one point, I think he had this crazy idea that he was, he was so pissed off at this one town, uh, they'd screwed him over somehow, and he was just going to poison their entire, uh, Water reservoir and just kill them all and they never, they never actually happened, but he talked about doing it.
Uh, he actually robbed, uh. It was, uh, President Taft's house at one point and stole a revolver from it. I don't know, for the audience, just [00:36:00] look this guy up. It's, he's got a really crazy story and, like, he's probably got, like, probably the best last words out of all the... serial killers. I mean, you know, not to make Casey sound cool or anything, but like Casey said, kiss my ass, which, I mean, I got to give it to him.
He just straight up just said, kiss my ass. So, um, a lot of these guys, like, I don't know, like their last moments, they'd be like, go like, I don't know, like either they don't say anything or, you know, express kind of some kind of regret, or I don't know. You know, Panzer I was like, you know what? Just kill me.
Like, I'm just gonna keep on doing this. And like, Casey's just like, you know, like, screw you guys. There's a certain degree you can kind of respect that, um, in a perverse kind of way. I mean, they're just people with no remorse, no regret, no human decency. I think that that's, it's an interesting, uh, uh, word.
It's an interesting way, uh, thing to look at is these people who are [00:37:00] just totally remorseless and The different areas, some of them do, uh, go to full blown organized crime and they sort of find a legitimate, be illegal, but more legitimate outlet to these feelings and then other people find one that's just totally, uh, totally off the wall and anti social.
I guess anti social is maybe the word? Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, I think a lot of these mob guys, uh, Have extremely anti social personality disorders. Not all of them, but I think a lot of them do. I think that's how you kind of end up finding yourself in a situation where you're, you know, joining a secret society that, you know, commits crimes and views down on the rest of everyone.
Not part of your little clique, right? Clear sign that that guy's antisocial is to give, is that given everything he did, all the terrible things that he did to people, all the pain he inflected, how awful a person he was. He somehow thought calling somebody from [00:38:00] Indiana, who's your bastard was, was, was an insult.
That's the lame. I'm going to, I'm going to put him in the lame category when it comes to final last words, but So it's like a fascinating life in a, you know, in a car wreck. What did I leave out on this? That there were people there at the time they were protesting, they were against the death penalty.
And Karl Panzer apparently was like yelling at these people being like, like, what's the matter with you? It's like, I want to die. Like, I can't. I'm just gonna keep on doing this, like, what are you people, like, what are you people even arguing about this? There's like, people showing up to like, basically his death sentence, like, arguing, like, Please don't kill this man, and, and, he's like, basically telling them, it's like, just bugger off, like, we just, you guys are slowing this down.
Like, it's, you know, which is like, um, Trying to, Martin Goldstein, which is like [00:39:00] the, we were doing the Murder, Inc. series, which is the exact opposite. He just turned into like a full on coward where he's just like, please don't do it. And he's acting all hysterical. And I mean, I don't know how I would react in that situation, but.
I mean, I'd like to think you wouldn't kill anybody in the first place, Chris,
you know, like, uh, yeah, I mean, like the death sentence or what have you, right? It's, um, Carl pans around. It's like, you know, it's like, I don't know. He faced it like a man, right? Or Martin Goldstein was, uh, like a coward, right? You know, pretending like he didn't do all these horrible things that clearly You know, did do and bragged about, so that, that, that, that, that could be, that could be a little bit the difference between a serial killer and a mob hit man.
Right? I mean, Bob hit man, you know, the reason that they're doing it is, is a little different. And when they get caught, they, you know, they could turn coward like that. I don't think too many serial killers have, have [00:40:00] done anything other than, you know, Try to beat their case, maybe, but they've embraced their role.
A lot of times. I mean, it's like, all right, I'm caught. I might as well get as much infamy out of this as possible and let people know how quote unquote awesome I am, you know, and, and I, I, I just think it's another difference. You could point out. I don't know that every hit man turns into a cry baby. I'm not saying that, but I haven't seen many serial killers who have, uh, just one or two.
Yeah. to mind first, maybe.
Per se turn into a cry baby, but like Ted Bundy, you know, he started saying, Oh, like I started watching pornography when I was young and this is why I like let it into this and this happened to me. And it's just like, yeah. And he tried to string it along with, uh, I'll tell you where this body is and I'll tell you where that body is, but, you know, trying to keep himself alive.
We had a serial killer up in Spokane, um, back in the, in the nineties. Um, That that might make for an interesting discussion sometime, but, [00:41:00] uh, Robert Lee Yates is his name and he was a big blubbering baby at his sentencing. Um, so, you know, but his cover story was, you know, upstanding community member, family man, you know, and all that.
And so, you know, he. He had his roll down. I mean, I think they're all sociopaths, you know, in the same way that Tony Soprano is a sociopath, you know, they learn how to pretend to be, uh, normal people who have emotions and react appropriately to whatever's going on. Um, so I don't know if he was legitimately upset or not.
I kind of doubt it, but he sure did put on a show. Blubbering like a baby. I think you could almost say Jeffrey Dahmer at his trial. Like, maybe he was somebody who just could not fight his compulsions. And, um, when he had to finally stop after getting busted, it all, it all did hit him. What he was doing was so awful.
So, like, I watched that [00:42:00] Netflix series, the Dahmer one that everyone was watching, and they tried, I don't know, they tried to make it seem like, like, his whole family situation was, like, really messed up, and, like, yeah, his mom had, like, mental health problems that he probably inherited a bit. from because some of that stuff is passed on genetically.
But like, I mean, the truth of the matter is, like, Dahmer didn't have anything that was like, it's not like he was abused as a kid, or his dad was bad to him, or even his mom, right? Like, I, he's one of those cases where, like, I think he was, like, just born like that. And. You know, if we had people that could notice things earlier, like, um, Dahmer should have institutionalized film pretty much like, right from the get go.
That, that, that, well, that, that infrastructure just isn't there to, to, to do that preventatively. Unfortunately, I was just going to express a little disgust for. For the inconsistency with which Netflix has been producing historical documentaries and docudramas and stuff. There's some really good stuff on there.
The stuff about the Roman Empire and the stuff [00:43:00] about the Ottoman Empire is really well done if a bit dramatized. But there's some things on there. I mean, I didn't watch the Dahmer one. The reviews I read on it that that talked about the historicity of it were rather critical. Um, so that was my biggest complaint, right?
Um, My wife like likes slut stuff. So I, I just ended up watching So with her, and I'm just, I don't know. I'm just sitting there, I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, I mean, is this really something that like the vast majority of people should be watching? Like, I'm literally watching a guy fry up, up and flesh and, you know, like it's
I don't know, like maybe I'm just, I don't know. Like I, maybe this is just something that shouldn't be popular. I don't, I'm just saying that out loud. Well, and you, you talk about the concept of justice and the different kinds of justice, uh, that exist. And, you know, on a karmic level, I guess justice was served on him in more than one way.
I mean, he, he didn't last very long in the prison system after being convicted. I wonder if Jeffrey Dahmer was the type of person where it was [00:44:00] almost like a perfect storm, where His family life was kind of messed up, his dad was checked out, like you said, his mom had mental illness, like if somebody had caught him early and got him into counseling and dealt with those issues before they really took off, if they, if he might not have done what he did, it's just that he just continuously slipped through the cracks.
See, I don't, I think there's some people like in Dahmer's, I don't think there's a lot of them, but I think somebody like Dahmer is just, there's something is that maybe we just don't understand it yet. But there, I don't think any amount of counseling was going to fix that guy. Like, I think he was going to end up doing what he did 1 way or another.
I mean, like Frank said, we just don't have that kind of preventative, uh, infrastructure in place for, correct. You know, there's certain things that you could see and you catch it right away. And I mean, should have been, I mean, we used to put people in institutions a [00:45:00] lot more quickly than we do now. I mean, I think that's one of the problems we have now is we don't, we don't put people in institutions.
Um, I just, I don't think there was any fixing to armor. I think like almost right from the get go, there'll be something seriously wrong with this guy. And unfortunately, not only do we not have. Preventative, uh, mechanisms in place to any great degree, but even our reactive mechanisms in the, in the structure supporting it, the infrastructure there is, is pretty overtaxed and pretty limited.
So, a guy like him can pretty easily slip through the system. Um, when I was teaching leadership after I retired from, from law enforcement for a few years, I, you always teach with the almost always taught with another instructor. And, um, I, I taught with a captain from, uh, Milwaukee, um, and, uh, she had some interesting stories to tell regarding that time period and, and, and, and how they screwed up with Dahmer and [00:46:00] then places where they were getting accused of screwed up where they didn't, and where they're getting let off the hook, where they screwed up and it was kind of an interesting kind of secondhand story to hear rather than, you know, a Netflix, maybe not very accurate show.
So we're at 4. 5 for Frank and I'm, uh, still stuck at 3. 5.
Steve here again with a quick word from our sponsors. Yeah, so, here we have a group of men that would lure, uh, a group of men that would lure men To an apartment and a bar that they own. They would shoot, then wrap a towel around his head, point blank to help contain some of the bleeding. Once that was done, they would stab the man in the heart to slow down the bleeding.
Oh no, we're not done yet. They would hang the body up afterwards and cut it into small pieces that would be scattered around various dumps in the city. Was this, uh, the work of, um, mob [00:47:00] guys or serial killers? Okay, so clarification request here. Uh, this is something that occurred on more than one occasion.
This is not a singular event. This happened multiple times. Okay. Well, it sounds like it sounds very serial killer esque, but, uh, I think you're trying to trick me, Chris. I think this is a mob thing. I think they just picked the people that they. Thought needed to to disappear and then they did it in a way that made a statement.
So this is your opportunity Steve I'm in the kind of in the same spot in the reverse Do I go with what at my gut or do I go with the opposite to try and get caught up? I'm going with mafia on this one Yeah, well, basically what I described is, yeah, mob hit, uh, this is what's, this is called the Gemini Method that, uh, Rory Dembao and the, uh, Gemini, Gemini crew made famous.
Yeah, they would lure guys, uh, apartment that was in the back of the [00:48:00] bar, and they came up with this elaborate system to basically... You know, contain as much of the, uh, the blood and the, uh, the mess that comes with killing people. And this is like kind of through trial and error too, right? Like they figured after doing it a couple of times, they're like, Oh, if we wrap a towel around the head right away, like it contains most of the bleeding.
And then it's like, well, how do we slow down? Like just the bleeding itself. It's like, Oh, we're going to stab a guy in the heart. And then the, uh. You know, if we hang it up, then, you know, you run the water and the blood just goes down the drain. And then the body parts, you know, they learned, uh, they learned, uh, got to throw them around different dumps around the city.
And then once it goes to the dump, they're almost next to impossible to find. And I mean, I think they learned, uh, 1 time they, they found torso 1 time, and then they learned, oh, wait, we forgot to, uh. Stab lungs. Uh, otherwise the the lungs will, uh, help the torso float back up. But if you stab them enough times, they'll [00:49:00] just sink to the bottoms they fill up with the water.
Right? Um, yeah. This is kind of, they've discovered this method through trial and error. Once they perfected it. Uh, the rest is history. I mean, they became probably the most efficient, uh, mob killing machine in history. You know, some people put the body counts for the, the, um, the Gemini crew up to, you know, 250, which is just insane.
Holy cow. 250 people, you know, it was a group of guys that were doing it, but Roy DeMeo was, uh, um, personally involved in most of these killings. And it was over a fairly short amount of time too, wasn't it? Yeah, it was, uh, not that long. It was, uh, it was more than just, say, like, a couple of years, but, uh, Yeah, it was, uh, you know, it was a fairly quick, um, I mean, technically, a lot of these guys, they kind of go super overboard with the killing, like, say, like, the Gemini crew, uh, they don't tend to last super long, but, um, yeah.
You know, it wasn't wasn't over, [00:50:00] like, say, like, 40 years or 30 years or anything like that. Uh, you know, Roy DeMille would end up getting killed by his, uh, his mafia partners. But yeah, you know, it's crazy to think like, you know, 250 people, maybe, who knows? Could be more, you know, a lot of these bodies they never found.
They're never going to find them. Like, uh, at one point they were thinking, well, actually just start digging up. The dump to try to find parts and I think they did it for like a week and they're like, we're not, we're not going to find anything, not an apartment. That was an abattoir and those dumps. I mean, it's, it's honestly a smart place to go because those dumps and most metropolitan areas, I mean, they're getting Feet of garbage a day.
I mean, and it, there's usually not a lot of other places to move the garbage to other places. And so if you don't let people, if you don't let them dump in that dump, it causes a major problem. So that, uh, that you couldn't stop filling a [00:51:00] dump for a week. To go digging around in there, if you even, you know, maybe a place like the NYPD would have the resources to even do that.
Yeah, but any place that would have the resources would also live in an area that had, has a dump that huge than that, you know, that daunting of a task. So, I mean, it's probably all relative in that regard. It is a smart place to go. And the dismemberment is, is such a smart thing too. I mean, even today with, with DNA.
It's still a smart way to get rid of a body. That's, that's amazing to me that that was that number that they cranked out. That, you know, it's, it's, it's up for debate how many they actually did. I've, uh, I've heard different numbers, but you know, let's just call it, I'd say 200, yeah, 200 or pretty. Pretty darn close to 200 bodies, which is while they and considering like, 1 of the 1st ones that they ended up doing, they almost got caught where I think it was like a thigh of 1 person that they, they dumped in a [00:52:00] dump.
And this homeless guy saw this thing wrapped up in like meat wrapping packaging and thinking like, uh, oh, like, I scored big, like, look at the size of this piece of meat. So then apparently when he, he opened it up, he realized pretty quickly that it was, uh, yeah.
And, uh, he confirmed it because there was like a tattoo on it. So they started, uh, started using like, um, you know, like the knives that you like scale fish and stuff like that to, uh, get the tattoos off and any kind of identifiable, uh, markings. And what kind of world was that where people didn't notice that maybe, uh, several people a month went into the Gemini lounge, but never left.
Yeah, it's not the Hotel California. I mean, come on, you know, they only think a lot of the times they were just taking out other criminals and they were also taking out like criminals ended up becoming informants and, you know, like the DeMayo crew. You know, they had cops on the [00:53:00] inside, right? They were feeding this, feeding them this information.
So they, they must have known, had a pretty good idea. Like, oh, where did so and so go? It's like, oh, we don't know. Type, type thing, right? And there was a lot of people that are making money off of them too, right? Because they, they're big, uh, Their big score was running, uh, um, well, they ran drugs and they ran, they did pornography, but their biggest, I guess, I guess the thing that they're most famous for is the stolen cars, um, like mass stealing cars and, uh, chopping them up or repurposing them.
And at one point, like he literally was an international criminal where he was like shipping cars. I believe is, uh, if I'm remembering correctly, it was, uh, to do, uh, United Arab Emirates. And, like, to the point where they're like, I want a Toyota Camry with, that's red, with these types of rims. And, that's how, like, sophisticated this car theft operation was.
So, there's a lot of people that are getting kickbacks. You know, it's like, oh, we're all making money, and, you know, you know, this person's [00:54:00] gonna screw that up. And, I'm assuming that's, that's probably, that's probably exactly why it was allowed to go on for as long as it was. Everyone was making too much money off of it.
It's crazy. People are ticked. Terrified of Rory DeMille, because they knew what happened at the Gemini Lounge. Alright, so 5. 5 to 4. 5. Now we're at the final question. Here, here we have a group of men that captured and tortured a man for hours. Then after they thought he, he was, uh, killed, they buried him in a shallow grave.
It turned out that he wasn't dead, and was actually buried alive. Was this, uh, the work of, uh, the mob, or serial killers? That sounds like a, a story I've heard of. And I want to say it is the mob. Yeah, it, it, it comes across to me as, as a little bit of a, an incompetent hit more than it does a, uh, a serial killer.
I mean, [00:55:00] and I mentioned earlier that only 10% of. Serial killers are duos. So the group of men part kind of puts me more towards the mafia angle angle as well. So mob. It is. So, yeah, this was done by the mob. And, uh, actually you can revisit this, uh, this murder. Actually, this is the 1 that, uh, a brellis and his crew committed against 1 of the Shapiro brothers where.
They were burying him and, um, somebody, uh, pedestrian happened to see kind of what they were doing. And so they hadn't, they didn't actually finish the job fully. Pretty sure they, they thought he was dead. But, uh, when they exhumed the body, the, uh, the doctors realized, uh, pretty quickly that, um, no, this man had been, uh, buried alive.
Which is horrible way to go. Trying to think, think about, um, I don't know whether felt , you gotta hope afterwards or, or not, but you gotta hope the guy was at least like, [00:56:00] unconscious from his injuries and didn't, you know, wasn't aware of what was going on there as he was smothered essentially. 'cause that's just a horrible, that that's terrible.
It's one of the worst mob killings I'm aware of, really is. Buried alive. We'll probably get into this at some point, but the real person who Joe Pesci played in Casino, I think he was buried alive too. Him and his brother. Out in the desert. Yeah, or in a cornfield. I don't, but it was that, um, that's bad.
That's pretty, I mean, but it gets, I mean, that's, you're doing that full out of full hatred. Yeah. And then there's like other mob guys, uh, we've talked about them before. I mean, Anthony, uh, Gas Pipe Caso, where you go and this guy sounds like a serial killer. Like even the FBI, when they were thinking about using him as an informant, like they heard him like laughing about killing people.
And I think it was one. He claims to a, [00:57:00] some drug runner or whatever that, uh, he screwed up or he was going to inform or he was going to say something. And it was like down in Florida. And he trying to remember this story correctly, but I believe he claimed that he buried this guy alive too. And he was like laughing about it.
And this is when the FBI goes, it said to them. So it's like, there's no, no, we can't do that. We can't do this with this guy. I'm like, we, I know we did it with Sammy the bowl. But, uh, like, this guy's just, it's too much. It's too far. It makes us look bad. I mean, Sammy the Bull Gravano made them look bad too, but this guy's going to make us like, look really bad.
Because they, you, I don't know, you talk, you read about, uh, somebody like, like, Gas Pipe Caso and you go, like, this guy was like, yeah, he was a mob, he wasn't a mob, but he was like, right underneath the mob boss, but it was kind of him and his, uh, partner were like, cold mob bosses. I mean, was this guy a serial killer or not?
Like, I've read his blog. Um, Philip Carlo wrote it, and you listen to this guy talk about himself, and he's, he sounds like a serial [00:58:00] killer because he's just completely delusional about who he is. Like, he's just like, just like, almost virtually zero self awareness. I could be, that's how it comes, came across to me.
Well, Frank snuck ahead right above at the got across the finish line and he wins at 5. 5 to 4. 5. Well, uh, I'm very interested to hear how our friends, the friends of ours at home did on this, uh, game. So definitely send in. On social media, email crime at a two z history page. com or all the other ways to get in contact because I'd be very interested to hear how you did on the game.
And if you'd like to hear more episodes like this. 5. 5 score to beat. Yeah. 5. 5. Let's got to be, got to be some experts out there that can do that. That's a, that's, that's not that difficult. [00:59:00] You know, what occurred to me as we're talking about this, that all of these folks are sociopaths. Um, maybe some of the hit men that.
Did it once or twice or whatever, backed into a corner sort of thing, you could make an argument that they weren't. But anybody who has a body count of any magnitude, they're sociopath. The biggest difference between these two hit men and serial killers is that when you make a movie about a serial killer, they're the bad guy.
When you make a movie about a mafia hit man, he's the good guy. Yeah, there's definitely something to say about, about that. Yeah, you know, pretty accurate observation. So we're going to leave it at that. Uh, we definitely would love to hear your feedback. And the biggest thing you can do to help us is tell your friends about organized crime and punishment so that your friends can become friends of ours.
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