Organized Crime and Punishment

Title: Meet the Families – The Gambino Family Original Publication Date: 6/7/2023 Transcript URL: https://share.descript.com/view/N78OGme4bhq Description: In this episode of Organized and Punishment, Mustache Chris and Steve unravel the captivating history of the #GambinoCrimeFamily, an infamous Mafia organization that left an indelible mark on American organized crime. From its humble beginnings to its rise to power, we delve into the story of this notorious family. Under the leadership of Carlo Gambino, the Gambino crime family established itself as a force to be reckoned with. From Prohibition-era bootlegging to involvement in various criminal activities, #CarloGambino's reign witnessed the family's ascent to prominence. Tune in as we explore the shadows of the #GambinoCrimeFamily and its impact on the criminal underworld. #GambinoCrimeFamily #MafiaHistory #OrganizedCrime #TrueCrimePodcast #CarloGambino #CriminalEmpire #PowerfulFamilies #AmericanMafia #CrimeSyndicate #ProhibitionEra #Mobsters #CrimeBoss #InfamousFamily #GangsterLife #CriminalUnderworld #GambinoLegacy You can learn more about Organized Crime and Punishment and subscribe at all these great places: www.atozhistorypage.com email: crime@atozhistorypage.com www.organizedcrimeandpunishment.com Parthenon Podcast Network Home: parthenonpodcast.com On Social Media: https://www.youtube.com/@atozhistory https://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypage https://facebook.com/atozhistorypage https://twitter.com/atozhistorypage https://www.instagram.com/atozhistorypage/ Music Provided by: Music from "5/8 Socket" by Rico's Gruv Used by permission. © 2021 All Rights Reserved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=210vQJ4-Ns0 https://open.spotify.com/album/32EOkwDG1YdZwfm8pFOzUu Begin Transcript: [00:00:00] Welcome to Organized Crime and Punishment, the best spot in town to hang out and talk about history and crime with your hosts, Steve and Mustache, Chris. Here we are again with another five families in five episodes. I am Steve and I'm joined by our partner in Crime Mustache, Chris. Today we are telling the story of one of the most famous or possibly infamous Mafia families, the big one, the Gambino family. Of all the families, the Gambinos are likely to be the family. Most people are familiar with. That being said, the Gambinos have one of the most complicated histories of all the families, and they were central in some way or in some way connected to almost all of the stories that we will tell in this first season of organized crime and punishment. So let's get [00:01:00] started. Chris, just overall, what's your thought about the the Gambino family? When you think of like the stereotypical mafia guy from the movie, it's like the Gambino family. This is what I would think of, right? Uh, wearing the, maybe because this is more so like John Gotti, like wearing the flashy suits and you know, talking to the media and stuff like that. I don't know. Out of all the families, I say the Gambino family, family's probably the most fun to read about. Yeah, I think we're gonna see that they're the most, I guess you might saw, say, the most varied. They're, they're into the real, in the, in the trenches kind of crime stuff, but they're also in the highest of high finance and white collar crime. They really, uh, they, they embraced all of it, the blue collar to the white collar crime, but, Let's go, uh, and talk about the kind of the, the origins. And again, we're, we're gonna go deep into history with this one, but we're just going to really skim over it. All of these with all of the [00:02:00] episodes. We're gonna go into some deep dives into the very earliest of the mafia, but where does this Gambino family set its roots? The Gambino family can trace his origins back to the Qui gang, which is, uh, they were part of the Igna, uh, which was led by, uh, sorry, Ignasio, uh, Lupu, who was, uh, like a newly arrived, uh, Sicilian immigrant in New York, who ba basically ran, uh, Little Italy, his nickname was The Wolf. Right. So that kind of gives you an idea of the type of character this guy was. Yeah. But he ended up finding himself in jail. Uh, for, had some, it was a massive, uh, counterfeiting money scheme. And I think one, well eventually we're gonna get into it cuz it involves like a very famous Italian detective. This is like the very early. Um, mafia history, like goes all the way back to like Sicily, right? It's a fascinating story, but once, uh, Lupu went to jail, it kind of paved the way for, uh, Salvador, uh, qui to, uh, [00:03:00] take over the gang, right? So like the bigger gang qui was a, you know, it was a good mobster. He didn't waste any time. Like, he, uh, formed a bunch of alliances with different gangs in New York and outside of the United States. And, um, By the end of it, he had formed like one of the most powerful gangs in New York. Really? And in the United States by extension. Right? Because even at this early time, that's where all the power was really. He was in New York. You'll have like a brief respite with uh, Al Capone in Chicago, but you know, who controls New York basically controls organized crime. Moving on to the next step, we bring in our old. Pal Joe the boss, Mezzer, who we're, will definitely talk a lot more about him, but he's kind of the next phase and um, I think people will be at least somewhat familiar that it seems to me. And I wonder what you think of this as like these very early mafia groups, they're like essentially like the prototypical gang of a, uh, a couple of [00:04:00] hoodlums gangsters. They control maybe a small couple of streets, but then. They become a little bit more organized and a little bit bigger with like the next step of Joe the boss, Mezzer, and then we're gonna see that they even get more organized. And that seems to be kind of the theme is that it, the, the mafia becomes more and more organized with each war that comes along. Yeah, for sure. It's kind of like, kind of like how a nation forms really, right? It starts as like a tribal, maybe city state type situation. Then it gets more organized and it spreads its influence and the state becomes a little bit more hierarchical and more, more organized us, and in a lot of ways it's kind of how. Say you think of like, uh, we were just talking about Rome the other day, and it's kind of how Rome started. Right? Started us as a small city and slowly became more organized and the Senate became more complicated and, you know, there was rigid structures were put in [00:05:00] place. It's kind of how the mob started, right? Except in this case it's small street gangs of usually people that grew up together. And slowly these gangs start getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and the, the stakes become higher and higher. And it seems that this is really the, you know what I've been trying to search for, what's the Americanization of this? And that seems to be the Americanization is getting more and more organized that in Italy, I didn't, don't really see much of an an, an analogy of. The system that got built in America with the Kimora or the Erta or the the Mafia proper in Sicily. It doesn't seem to have ever had that level of cohesion like the American Mafia built of these families that were all, I mean, they always were fighting with each other, but there was at least some idea that there needed to be cohesion. That seems like that's maybe what is the American spin on the mafia. Yeah, even the, even the [00:06:00] idea of, um, we've already talked about it, but the, the commission, right, like the, that was the Sicilian Mafia actually kind of took that idea from the American Mafia and it worked for a little bit in Sicily. Well, one, you know, down the world will actually do like a proper history on the. Sicilian mafia, like in in Sicily, it's, it's, I'd be completely honest with you, it's hard to get material to do a lot of, like, I've done some research but surprising that not much is actually written in English. And you know, I'm not gonna learn Sicilian anytime soon. So it's, um, but one day we're gonna, we're gonna crack that open cuz there's some, it's a fascinating story really, and it's a lot different than the American mafia. Now we move on. You know, just a long story short, Joe the boss, Mazzer, he kills de qui. And then, so that leads us into the Mazare times. But then Earl Pa Salvador Marzano comes in and that leads to the Casta La Marza War. Let's talk a little bit about that. [00:07:00] Like you pointed out, like Joe Maser, uh, killed, uh, a Salvator di, and um, It basically put that at the, to kind of set it up like the Joe Mazare kind of ran, what was the Morelo gang? Quill ran like the opposing gang in New York. Right. So when Joe Mazare killed Qui, he basically killed his top competition. Right. Um, and then that's when the, the, the Marzano, uh, clan comes in and. Did they become like the top competition to, uh, Joe the boss? Uh, so yeah, the Tequila gang wasn't like really so much of a thing during the Castle Lamari war, but by the end of it, Vincent, uh, manga, uh, Mangano was, uh, named the head of that particular gang. And then it changes its name to the. The Mangano, uh, family. Tell us a little bit about Vincent Mangano. He was like, he was like a pretty conservative, uh, element in the, for the [00:08:00] mafia, right? And in a lot of ways he was kind of like a. He was kind of like a mustache Pete, really. Right? Uh, yeah. He didn't really get along with some of the younger guys. Right. Like Lucky Luciano Meyer Lansky. He was kind of, um, standoffish really. He didn't, I don't know. He was an uneasy relationship between, uh, between those guys. Right. Uh, as opposed to if you look at the relationship between like Lucky Luciano and even like with. With him and Joe Bono initially, and Joe, they all seemed like they were pretty good friends. We start to get into the next phase with Albert Anastasia, and he's a wild character. When Vincent Mangano was um, named boss, he, Albert Anastasia, I think he was kind of told that Albert Anastasia was going to be the underboss of the family, and yeah, they didn't really get along all that well. Like Vincent just. You know, he didn't, didn't trust him. Made him feel uneasy. I mean, Albert Anastasia, he ran an [00:09:00] organization that was called, it was literally called Murder Incorporated, right? Where their job was to just take care of people that were gonna talk or, you know, hits for the other five families. And Murder Incorporated was pretty, you know, it was pretty fascinating. Like, uh, we're gonna do like a deep dive on that too, right? But like the. They used a lot of like, uh, they used Italians, but they used a lot of like Jewish hitman and Irish hitman, um, to kind of give themselves a little bit of distance or it's like, oh, it's not just Italians. Like, look, you know, it's like there's some Jews doing this too. It's a wide variety of murderous psychos in our gang. Yeah. Basically. And like Albert Anastasia is, you know, just to kind of give you an idea, like he, his, his nickname was Lord High Executioner. Right. This was a guy that you'll, during this series, you flying, like there's guys that do hits and it's just part of the job, right? That's the way they look. It's like a soldier, really. Like, you know, I gotta kill. This person, you know, [00:10:00] it is what it is. Right. Al Anastasia actually did like, enjoy torturing people and murdering people. He was a stone cold psychopath, but he was a really good earner too, you know? Uh, he basically ran the waterfront, like him and his, uh, him and his, I believe it was his brother, basically, um, ran. Um, the long, like I said, the International Longshoreman's Association really like, well, they had like high influence in it. Uh, yeah. But that's where Albert made most of his money, was in the, uh, Was in the waterfront, and especially at this time, that's basically how everything came into the country. And people weren't, there wasn't like big transport jets and big airport. There were airports, but it wasn't, wasn't as big of a thing. Most of it was via water. The Murder, Inc. And we'll get into, like you said, a deep dive into Murder, Inc. But whenever I think about Murder Inc, it makes me think a lot about the Gemini gang and Roy de Mayo, which will. They won't come around for many [00:11:00] years later than this, but it, uh, will, we will definitely do a deep dive on the Gemini gang. It seemed to be like this, the glomeration of people, AER Anastasia and the lead who's a psycho brings in other psychos, and it didn't really matter that they weren't necessarily Italian, like there was Dutch Schultz. I think he was a member of Murder Inc. And all sorts of just other s. Psychologically very twisted. People who, you know, get in these murder for higher games and they, uh, just love killing people. Like that comes before even earning or anything like that. Like that. You see the really psycho end of crime in these guys. Well, it's funny cuz like people get this, uh, like this, uh, I I, there's like this image that I, I think people get of like, say somebody like Lucky Luciano who was like, oh no, like, he wasn't like a to, he wasn't a total psychopath. Like, he was just like trying to earn money and [00:12:00] like, look at how a, you know, brilliant like mob, like mob guy was. I'm like, what Murder Incorporated was his idea? From everything that I've read. Oh, really? So, you know what I mean? Like it was his idea, like it was gonna be the enforcement wing of the commission. Really. And I, I mean, I get it right, because to, I mean, you're running like an organization. It's sole purposes to. Make money through illegal means, and somebody decides like they're going to talk, you know, where like regular people can just go to court, deal with their issues. These guys can't go to court, you know, be like, oh, this guy stole my heroin. Or you know, this guy stole this illegal booze that I was selling. Or, you know, this prostitute ripped me off. Or, you know what I mean? Like the, so they have to, uh, they have to basically enforce their own rules and this is the way they went about it. I mean, They don't have to do the stuff. Like, we're not gonna get into all the details about, you know, stuff that Albert did. But let's just say it's, I don't know, some of these mob guys like straddle a [00:13:00] line between like, are they just like killers or are they like, I mean, are they serial killers or are they just soldiers? And Albert's is definitely. Firmly on the line of, I'd say he was, he was a serial killer. Steve, here again, we are a member of the Parthenon Podcast Network, featuring great shows like Josh Cohen's, eyewitness History, and many other great shows. What's the transition then between Vincent Mangano to Albert Anastasia? Well, Albert just comes to OC conclusion that he is just gonna, he's gonna kill Vincent and his brother, and that's exactly what happened. They never found, uh, Vincent Mangano, uh, Phil. They did find, um, I think it was a couple weeks later, but, [00:14:00] uh, Vincent, we still don't know where his body is. We don't know for sure who killed him, to be honest with you. It was Albert, right. But yeah, we don't have to prosecute him in an court of law. We can, it was a, it was an like, but like there was like a commission, uh, like the commission had a hearing about it, cuz it's, this is a big no no, you can't just take out a, you know, a member of the, uh, a boss, you know, let, you can't even take out a ma guy without approval, let alone a boss. So the commission has a hearing, Albert says, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. Um, but. Just in case, uh, you know, he was trying to kill me first, but that's what he, that's, that's his argument. Right. So he is like admitting to it without actually admitting to it. And the commission just kind of went along with it. Cuz like, to be quite honest with you, the majority of the people on the commission, Albert and Stasia scared the living crap out of them. I mean, he ran. They knew what he was capable of because they hired him to do the jobs with and [00:15:00] mortar incorporated. Right. So now l let's, um, can you just briefly tell us about Albert Anastasia, his, uh, reign, uh, as boss? It, yeah. I wasn't, uh, very long like Frank. He. What he ended up, how he ended up becoming boss was basically Frank Costello said he wanted him to be boss. And I, you know, Frank Costello being a smart guy, said, well, if I, you know, if I'm around this guy, people aren't gonna really kind of try to screw around with me too much. Um, so yeah, but Albert. Just some people are just not meant to be in charge of things. And Albert, just like one of these people, like, he was just very bullish and the way he went about business, like even at one point he started to open up like opposing uh, casinos in Cuba to like rival Meyer Lansky's, which was just not a good idea and was. Basically just rubbing everybody the wrong way and acting like a, like a psychopath that he was. And the commission comes to the conclusion that, um, you know, we have [00:16:00] to get rid of this guy, right? And, you know, he gets killed in 1957. But to be honest with you, we never know who, we don't know who actually killed Albert. I mean, there's theories. Joe Gallo used to tell people that he was the one who did the hit, but I'm not a hundred percent sure he is telling the truth about that. That seems like something to brag about on the streets. Yeah, I mean, I think that would've been cool, but, um, I mean, who knows? I guess he doesn't have a Yeah, a reason to lie about it. Necessarily, you know, you're one of the, you know, the street tufts or whatever, and you go around telling everybody like, I, you know, I'm the one that killed the, you know, the Lord high executioner. You know, don't screw around with me. I mean, yeah, it gives you a little bit of street cred, right. And if you repeat something enough, people will be like, oh, I guess he's telling the truth about it. You know, when we have Albert Anastasia out of the way. Who fills up that power vacuum? There was a kind of an, an agreement with Carlo Gambino, lucky Luciano Meyer, Lansky, kind of Vito [00:17:00] Genovese, uh, to like get rid of Albert and then Carlo would take over, would take over the family. Carlo Gambino, and this is now, it becomes known as the Gambino family. And from this point on, it's gonna be known as the Gambino family. It's interest, I, I think I mentioned this on the last episode, on at one point it seemed like it changed, the family name changed depending on who was in charge. And then they just stopped doing it like, you know what I mean? Now, like everyone just keeps the same name. I wonder why I, I just, It'd be interesting to find out why that changed. That is interesting. Like the bonanos kind of stuck early. Uh, the Colombos, that one, not exactly. It, it seems like they kind of froze at different times. Castello took over and it wasn't, it was still, it was known as like the Luciano. Uh, but for the Genovese family was known as the Lucio family, right. Still. Right. So it wasn't known as the Costello family. And then when Vito took over [00:18:00] as the Geneve family and just stayed that, especially named after, probably one of the, probably the worst boss out of the mall was Vito Genovese. Right. But yeah. Had to get back to Carla. Takes over after Albert, uh, passes away. And then he names Anello De Crok is named as his underboss, who's, uh, That might be a mob. I don't know if the average person would know him, but he, he's quite famous himself. Yeah. He's no joke. I, if you do any reading at all into the Gambino family, Neil de Laroche is in TE's finger in every pie. Well, he'd been around for, he's been around, he'd been around forever. Right. And we're gonna get into it a little bit, but like, yeah, he was like John Gotti's mentor, and I would say car like j Carlo Gambino. His reign was probably one of the, if not the most successful reigns in mafia. History of all the five families, really, like one of the first things that he did was help get rid of veto genovese. So that was a good thing for them on the general right. We're gonna do, we'll do [00:19:00] end up, probably end up doing like a dive in Vito cuz It is. He, he has a really wild, so we talked to a little bit about it on the Genovese's, uh, family episode, but didn't really do it justice. Just how crazy this guy. Was, yeah. And then like he built like a, like a huge off shho casino gambling empire with Meyer Lansky, uh, in Cuba. You know, if you guys, uh, are familiar with history, you know, that was one of the big reasons why Castro kind of came about was the mob basically took over Cuba, uh, and. Turned it to like a, a giant resort and a giant casino. Really. The min, the administration that was in charge of Cuba at the time was completely fine with this. And the average Cuban was looking at this and going like, what's going on? Like, what's happening to our country? Right? And that's how somebody, you know, maybe Castro wasn't the answer, but that's kind of how somebody like Castro comes about because there's legitimate grievances going on here. And he was also involved in discovering the plot, [00:20:00] uh, that Joe Bono had. Uh, Uh, against the, uh, the, the rest of the commission. He gets bon, he kicks Bono out of the, uh, the picture. And at this point really, whereas the Genovese family before was probably the top dog family, the Gambino family. From this point on, i, I becomes, The most powerful family. It's, it's usually like, uh, you know, who's, who's the most powerful family? Is it the Gambinos or Geneve? And they kind of, they kind of trade it off, right? Nobody, nobody has ever been able to really, except for. For maybe a short period when everybody went to jail, where the Bono family was the most powerful. Um, for the vast majority of the American Mafia history, it's a tie between the Gambinos and the Genovese. The Genovese were probably better earners. The Gambinos are always bigger. It also seems that this is the time period where the Gambinos, like all of these families would have different power centers. Uh, the Bonanos, they, uh, you know, their power centers were [00:21:00] even in. Canada and other places where with the, even with inside of New York City, you might have a cruise operating out Little Italy and then some outta Brooklyn, some out of the Bronx, where this, the Gambino family, their division was more between the street guys and then the white collar guys and the union guys, like they had this high, high end. Kind of money making machine through the unions, through contracts, through construction. But then you also had the guys, the holdup guys and the ones just stealing truckloads of merch and stuff like that. This is like the kind of the white collar crime aspect. Well, I was always there, but like I think Carlo Gambino had a big part of making that much more important part of the, uh, Gambino organization. Yeah. And then. Um, Joe Colombo was the one that actually spoiled Joe Bono's plot. So like Caro Gambino ends up making him head of the [00:22:00] Colombo family, which the Colombo family, it's not a, a satellite state of the, of the Gambino family, but it's heavily dependent on the Gambino family. Right. Even the Gambinos like start working in on a, their own rockets. And even at one point, like Carlo Gambino was, uh, influential in naming the, um, one of the bosses, the Lucchese family. Didn't last very long, um, because he ended up, uh, Carmine Tar Mo Car. Car. We talked about Carmine tar tea. He ended up getting caught up in the French connection. Uh, Uh, drug trafficking, uh, scandals. So we're, we'll, we're gonna do a whole thing on the French connection too, down the road. But yeah, he was only short-lived, I mean, even, even in the Genovese family, Carl Gambino, uh, kind of pushed for this guy named Frank, uh, Terri to, uh, Takeover is at the acting boss. It just kind of shows you the amount of influence that Carlo Gambino had over the entire commission. I mean, he [00:23:00] really was kind of the boss of bosses. He was the guy running the show, and from my understanding, Carlo was super low key and for the most part, like he didn't want his I, his son, Tommy would get involved in the criminal side of things, but for the most part, I think he. Pushed his kids towards being completely legit. Yeah, I mean, he was, I mean, if you couldn't come up with a better boss than Carlo Gambino really like in terms of like keeping him low keyed, bringing in lots of money, taking care of business that needed to get taken care of, you know, and like unlike most mobsters, he like, he just, he died of natural causes in 1976. He didn't die in prison. He wasn't. You know, he wasn't killed like pretty remarkable considering like the amount of times of these characters that we talked about, and most of the time they either end up dying in prison or they get killed themselves. Not many guys can say they just died peacefully of natural causes. No, not at all. And [00:24:00] his, the heir to the throne, Paul Castellano will not die of natural causes. Obviously. He passed away. He named Paul Castellano as the, uh, the new boss of the Gambino family, which was a little shocking to a lot of, uh, a lot of people in the, uh, um, in the Gambino family cuz they, uh, they. Just assumed that an was gonna take over the, uh, position concerning he was the underboss. And, you know, I'd been working underneath Carlo Gambino this entire time, but, um, that's not what happened. I, you know, from everything I've read that Carlo Gambino kind of felt that the Gambino family would be better served, focusing more on the white. Collar type crimes that Paul Castellano was, uh, you know, specialized in, in terms of like, you know, construction and labor racketeering and things of that nature. But what ended up happening is it effectively just kind of split the family in half really. Like he had the white collar faction, which is. You know, Paul [00:25:00] Castellano was in charge of, and then you have, uh, the, the street guys, the blue collar faction that an was basically, uh, in charge of, I think with Paul Castellano he's in, you can put him in that category of. Just completely greedy mobsters. I have no doubt that Paul Castellano with his legitimate businesses probably would've made just as much money as with this mafia money, but he just couldn't. I think there just was never enough, and I think he also liked playing mafia, like being the Don and all that. I think he loved that. Part of it, but I don't think his heart was really in it. And I don't think that he really understood that he couldn't control these wild lions like Alo, Dick crochet and John Gotti. Like I, I think he thought like, oh, I'm the done, you know, [00:26:00] like old school, you know, almost the, the Godfather movie syndrome with him. Well, yeah, I mean that's a lot of how, that's kind of how the street guys felt about it, like in their eyes, you know, Paul Castellano just didn't have any legitimacy. Um, they, and a lot of, they, uh, de Crok was their boss, really. Um, that's the way they viewed it, and that's kind of how. It ran. I mean, maybe, maybe this is how Carlo Gambino thought this was gonna happen, where, you know, like, we're gonna run the empire with like two emperors and one emperor's gonna be focused on this part of the business and another emperor's gonna be focused on this part of the business. But, you know, it sounds like a great idea in theory, but. In practice, unless there's like somebody really remarkable overseeing the whole thing. Say like somebody like a dial and usually doesn't, usually doesn't work. Right. Like I said, Paul, well, Paul made a huge chunk of his money, was highly influential in the concrete club, [00:27:00] which is something probably do a little deep dive on that too. Like throughout the series were basically all the concrete. At one point that was being poured in New York, the mafia was getting a kickback on and you couldn't like, Even the people that were like literally just pouring the concrete and like actually doing the work, like the union, uh, part of it too, the mob controlled a lot of those unions. So to be able to get the union labor that you needed to do some of these bigger projects, I, so basically every step of the way the mob was getting a kickback on, they called it the concrete club because each family kind of got a little bit of a kickback out of it. Right. But the Gambino family was the one getting the most right. Going back to Paul Castellano when you have, you know what the, basically the Gambino crime family was, was a dis diversified company and it had different departments, and you need a leader who really understands all of the, the, you needed somebody who understood the white collar and you needed [00:28:00] somebody who had legitimacy on the streets. You got that in Carlo Gambino, but that type of person isn't cut from every cloth. Like, do you have the Aldi? Grocery store in, in Canada. It's a, it's a German company, but that's an, that's neither here nor there. But their, their whole philosophy is that when they hire somebody, like they hire managers and, um, They pay them top dollar, but you're gonna, you have to work for a certain time as a amount of time as a cashier. Then you have to work as a certain amount of time in the meat department, a certain time working in as a stock person, a certain part of the time as a janitor. And then if you wanna go higher up, you have to work at at different. Parts in the corporate office and payroll and accounts receivable, like the, you have to have the experience and know what it's actually like to work all this job. They're not just hiring a manager who, you [00:29:00] know, lords it up over everybody but doesn't know how to do the job. And yeah, you didn't get that in Paul Castellano. He wasn't somebody who was knocking overheads of car drivers to, uh, you know, stick up a, uh, load of. Cigarettes. You know, he never sold cigarettes on the street. Like that just wasn't his type of thing. And I don't think he could ever talk the language of a John Gotti. Well then when, when we get into like Gotti's reign, I mean you could argue that the problem with his reign was the reverse. Yeah, reverse. Right. Really. Yeah. Wrap us up with, uh, Paul Castellano. Castellano. He, uh, he get himself gets caught up in the giant commission trial that, uh, uh, that happens. We're gonna do a, we're gonna do a deep dive on this commission trial too, cuz it involves a lot of people like Rudy Giuliani and. Lawyers and basically the entire New York mob at the time, except for, uh, you know, John Gotti [00:30:00] gets spirited cause he wasn't a boss. But, uh, yeah, he names, uh, John Gotti and, uh, Thomas, uh, Belotti as the acting bosses, I guess kind of keeping up with this separation of powers to a degree where like Thomas Bilotti was more close to Paul Castellano and John Gotti was more close to Anella del Croach. This is like a big part of the Gambino history is the conflict, uh, between Paul Castellano and John Gotti. Like John Gotti had always been, uh, he always hated Paul Castella. I never liked him at all. Didn't take him very serious, and no, getting too deep into John Gotti. He had like childhood friends and his brother, uh, gene Gotti and Anthony. Uh, Ruggiero, they were caught up in a, like a drug trafficking, uh, scheme. And when we do our deep dive on Gotti, we'll get into all these characters. Uh, Ruggiero Gotti were like best friends from growing up. It's kind of like if you watch the movie and like a, like a mob movie, and they're [00:31:00] like kids and they're like, oh, we're gonna be best friends forever like this. Legitimately, what's the case between, uh, Gotti and uh, Ruggiero? Uh, Ruggiero was known as like, uh, he was known as quack quack cuz he would just wouldn't stop talking. He got caught in a bug talking about, uh, Drug trafficking and a bunch of, bunch of other stuff that he shouldn't have been talked to, shouldn't have been talking about. Paul Castellano ends up demanding like the, he wanted the transcripts to know, like, I wanna know what these guys are actually talking about. And uh, Anthony said, I'm not giving you anything. Right. And then Paul Castellano threatens to, uh, he's gonna demote John Gotti if he doesn't get these transcripts. I mean, and. Paul Castellano's defense. Like I would be demanding these transcripts too. You know what I mean? Like my name's on these tape, like I'm the one in charge of the bloody family. Um, you know, like things come down, they're probably gonna come after me. Um, you know, but it was. He was kind of at this moment, like when that, when that all went down where John [00:32:00] Gotti starts coming up with like, the idea, like, we gotta take, I gotta take Paul Castellano out. And he sets up like a conspiracy, um, group, really, um, with uh, secret society. Within a secret society. They're gonna end up, they ended up calling it the fist. That's a pretty badass name. I'm not gonna lie. Um, with Sammy the Bull and you know, like Frank DeCicco and, uh, Joseph Armon, uh, Monet, who was, I didn't realize this, but like he had, he could trace his like, you know, his relations in the family, like right back to, uh, the Mangano era, um, the sort of the Mangano era, which is, you know, it just kind of led a little bit of credibility to what John Gotti was doing, uh, and. Yeah, so like, uh, an de laro, he ends up dying of, uh, cancer and Paul Castellano doesn't attend the, uh, the [00:33:00] funeral, which, you know, sent John Gotti off. Like, how did you do this? This is your own underboss, y yada, yada, yada, you know? And like him and, uh, Gotti were, uh, again, an and Gotti were like, you know, really close. He was his mentor. And I think, uh, Anello was the only thing kind of holding Gotti back from actually taking out Carlo Gambino, cuz Anello. Was, he was still an old school mob guy. Right? Like he followed the rules, right? Like he didn't like, I don't think an was a really big fan of Paul Casto himself, but, you know, Carlo Gambino, his boss said he was the boss and you know, he followed the rules and he was the underboss. Right. Um, it's interesting to think what would've happened with the Gambino family if like an Ella Croach was actually named Boss and say, Paul Castellano was the underboss. It's interesting to think about if. A lot of this doesn't happen. Well, obviously, probably none of this probably happens, and maybe we were talking about a totally different history of the Gambino [00:34:00] family. Ella Go dies. And then Paul Castellano is caught up in this, the the commission trial case. And he, he names Thomas Bilotti, the new, the new Underboss, and then Thomas, uh, Gambino as the new acting boss. And this just sets. This just, you know, adding fuel to the fire where God is like, cuz even Thomas Bilotti was not a well liked, uh, individual himself. I read a little bit about, apparently he was like a nuclear bomb going off where like, like he'd get him like a little bit angry, like to the point where he'd just start freaking out and they would just get worse and worse and worse and like, he'd just wouldn't make it. He wasn't. He wasn't a really remarkable person either. He was kind of like, I guess you would call like a, a brown noser. You know, like those type, they come to the conclusion and we gotta, we gotta get rid of Paul. And, uh, you know, John Gotti will say, claim that his life was in danger. You know, it's, it's very possible Paul Castellano to talk about breaking up his, uh, his crew and. Spreading it, spreading it throughout the family. Baby's trying to ice isolate Gotti and, you know, eventually was gonna take him [00:35:00] out. But John Gotti, you know, they str, he strikes first on, on December 26th, 1985, they uh, shoot Thomas Bilotti and Paul Castellano in front of Sparks Steakhouse, which is probably. Probably the most famous mob hit of all time. I mean, it's, it's definitely like top three, top five. Steve, here again with a quick word from our sponsors. Yeah, I would say that, I mean, that was, I can kind of remember it when it even happened that it was huge news. I mean, that was the news. So tell us, um, you know, we can't. Obviously get into everything with John Gotti, and we will definitely spend some time on Gotti, but give us kind of the, the brief overview of John Gotti's career as boss. There was like an internal. Investigation by the commission where like, oh, you know, like what actually [00:36:00] happened? Gotti said he didn't have anything to do with the Castano hit. I don't think anybody actually believed that, but he ended up being named the new boss, the Gambino family. And, uh, on January 15th, 1986, He named Frank De, uh, Jaco as his, uh, as his Underboss and Ruggiero and, uh, Sammy the bull, who will get into it a little bit. Uh, were named as capos. Uh, just to kind of put it in perspective, like just how much money the mob was bringing in this time. This one family alone, the Gambino family was bringing in 500 million a year. I mean, that's just, I mean, I haven't done the research into that, but I would've to imagine that puts them in with almost any company at that time. Like Coca-Cola. I mean, you name it. I would've to imagine. Well, and then we, when you start getting into like these guys, it's like a lot of them are just like, they're just like meatheads. You know what I mean? But they're running like this company that's worth like [00:37:00] $500 million, you know? Like we'll get it to it a little bit. Like when we, uh, Just talk about just overall John Gotti, like at the end of it. But I did kind of put in perspective, maybe John was a little bit over his head, you know, like in terms of running the, running, something that was bringing in that much revenue. Not everyone was happy that John Gotti was, uh, named boss. And uh, two of these gentlemen that were uh, not happy was Vincent the Chink auntie and, uh, Anthony Corrao. And they actually hired, uh, Corrao actually. Contracted out a hit to get rid of Gotti, to set an example, because you can't just, you know what Gotti did was it's, it's actually funny to think about, like in terms of just killing a boss. It's happened twice in the Gambino family. Really? Like Albert and Anastasia killed, uh, Vincent and nothing. Ha Well, it happened three times. I actually killed Vincent. Nothing happened. Uh, Vincent Mangano and then Albert was killed. You know, [00:38:00] probably, you know, through Vito Genovese and Carlo Gambino and those guys working together and, uh, hiring somebody we don't know who. And then Paul Castellano was killed. It just came to my head right now. I can't think of another family where that three bosses were killed and like pretty three distinct errors of the, uh, and of the mafia too. Vincent wasn't happy and, uh, Anthony wasn't happy. They ended up hiring, uh, Vic Muzo and Gaspipe Caso, who we talked about on the Lucchese episode. And those guys were pretty crazy to, uh uh, Carry out a hit happens in, uh, April 13th, 1986. The car bomb was used and they probably would've got Gotti to be honest with you, but he had just happened to cancel, uh, some meeting that he was supposed to attend at the time, and it was only Frank DeCicco, his underboss that was in the car, he ended up getting killed. This hit is unique in the sense that like the American Mafia was kind of. Never really used car bombs, like in New York, uh, in [00:39:00] particular, like they never used car bombs cuz for fear of like heising hitting innocent bystanders and drawing heat, it was just car bombs were, no-no, but in Sicily it was, that's just due course. And like the, the zips, which are like newly arrived Sian Mafioso in America, that's what they, that's what the American counterparts would call 'em. Were zips pretty famous for using these car bombs. So the Gambino family wasn't sure. Who did it exactly. Like they didn't know. Was it like one of the other bosses or was it these zips? Um, so it caused like a little bit of confusion about, you know, exactly what happened. You know, imagine if you were Gotti, uh, you know, like you just really, it happened, happened. You just canceled like a meeting and that basically saved your life. Yeah. Even like, well, I mean a lot of these ma guys, especially later on like Gotti, like found himself up on like racketeering charges and stuff like that. And I'm not gonna get into all the details here. Like when we do our deep dive on Gotti, we will, he [00:40:00] paid off and intimidated the jury and this is kind of where he gets the name, the Teflon done, cuz nothing sticks to him cuz the government keeps on trying to get things to stick and nothing ever does. Uh, And just in general, like John Gotti not being able to get convicted was kind of like a big eyesore for the government cuz they, they had this big commission trial where they, you know, they got all the bosses and, you know, here's Gotti. He's like the one last boss like we need to get, and, uh, must well find him a little bit. They, they'll probably be much soup to anything to get go to get Gotti. And I think they must have been starting to realize that it was whack-a-mole, that as soon as one person, they took out one person that the next one. And that's why so much of how the government dealt with this crime, they had to really change it because you had to really root out the problem, like an infection. You can't leave any infection in there, it's just gonna completely explode again. And they had to find ways to really [00:41:00] make. Deep cracks into the organization and really split it up, and that's one of the things that Rudy Giuliana Giuliani did love him or hate him, that you can't deny what he did to the mafia. You know, we'll get into the downfall of John Gotti at this point. So the f b I was able to, uh, successfully, uh, bug the Raven Knights Social Club, which is where Gotti and his crew would hang out. Yeah. They were actually able to find like there was like a secret apartment in this club. That was, unless you knew about it, you wouldn't have actually been able to see it. But they, I guess they ended up finding out about this and they got, that's where they got the, the bug put in place. And this is where Gotti and them would discuss business because they tried bugging the, the Raven Night Club. But they would, the music would play. They'd play the music so lot, like you could get it bugged, but. None of the conversations were useful cuz you couldn't really hear exactly what they were saying. Right. So, I mean, the, a lot of these [00:42:00] mob guys will turn the radio right up. John Gotti, they used to discuss business in this club because he was actually deaf in one year. So he, he couldn't have the music turned all the way up. So they, you just have to talk to him normal, otherwise he wouldn't be able to hear you. And basically through this bug, they were able to charge Gotti with. Four murders and, uh, they ended up getting Sammy the bull with like, racketeering. So like leading up to the trial, like Gotti was denied using his regular lawyers. The state argued that, uh, his, uh, lawyers they had previously used in the, in his criminal cases were actually involved in this criminal enterprise. To be quite honest with the state wasn't lying about that. Like it's, uh, it's not a. Me, right? It's an actual thing. There's mob lawyers, right? And they're basically mob, they're basically mobsters. We'll talk a little bit about that when we talk about, uh, Vito Zuto, but they played the tapes though, to Sammy the Bowl thinking, you know, like, this is what Gotti was saying about you. And apparently Gotti was kind [00:43:00] of blaming some of the murders on Samuel Bowl, or Lee kind of pressured him into doing it, to be quite honest with you. Maybe he, he probably wasn't lying about that. You know, he talked about like, you know, Sammy was dumb, he was greedy and. Yada, yada, yada. And Sammy listened to all these tapes and none of which are lies, but it's all true. Sammy listened to these tapes and, you know, decided I'm just gonna turn state witness, right? I, I, you know, Sammy says like, there was no way that they were gonna win the case. And like, I don't know, even if they, even if he. Ex I've read things where like, Sammy came to the conclusion that like even if he got off, like he would end up having to like go on a killing screen himself just to protect himself. You know what I mean? Cuz everyone would've thought he would've like ratted. And I don't know, it was a kind of convoluted logic why he turned state witness, but it doesn't matter. He, he became, he turned state witnesses probably. The most famous, [00:44:00] you know, mobster Turncoat. I mean, I, I'm assuming a lot of people know who Sammy the Bull Gravano is, right? I mean, he is just, I think he shows how maybe that the government got too zealous and taking down John Gotti to let somebody like Sammy the bull gravano off. Basically, Scott Free is. I mean, that's such a miscarriage of justice. Somebody who murdered 19 people at least, I mean, you don't know with him of how much he's lying. I, I just think that that showed that the whole Sammy the Bull Gravano episode, and we can, we'll, I'm sure we'll talk about this much more and I'd love to hear what people out there have to say about it. I think that's maybe when the government went too far. And maybe made a pact with the devil too much to take down the bigger fish. I, personally, I think it makes 'em look bad, right? [00:45:00] Like I've listened to, you know, uh, prosecutors and FBI agents and stuff like that. Talk about like, you know, Sammy was like, I. So amazing on the stand. You know, he didn't lie about his involvement in like certain things and it's like, well no, he kind of did. He said he wasn't dealing drugs and that was a lie. You know, he admitted to 19 murders and it was definitely more than that. Um, like you have a guy on the stand that's like, I killed 19 people, but like, this guy's worse. Yeah. Like, what is that? It's just cra that's, it Just made, it made, in my opinion, it just made them look like. Crave and desperate. You know, like we just got, we have to get this last mob, the big mob boss, you know, we got them all, we got all the others. We gotta get this guy. And he keeps on making fun of us cuz none of our char, you know, none of our charges stick to him. And it, it just, I don't know. It's, it seemed really embarrassing, like, you know, even at the time, like, this isn't just hindsight, like people were protesting the fact that they were using Samuel Bull Gravano as a state witness, like a known [00:46:00] murdering lunatic slash like drug trafficker. Right. But the government denied that he was a drug. He had anything to do with drugs, which is so crazy. Yeah. It's a nature problem. I think it's ama, like you said, it's a huge. Dark stain on federal law enforcement. Gotti ends up getting charged with the murder. So he ends up going to life, going to jail for life. Same. The bull by the end of it, only ended up serving one year, and then he was in part of the witness protection program, which he, uh, didn't follow the rules in that either. And, you know, surprise, surprise, years later it was caught running a, a giant ecstasy drug trafficking ring in, uh, Arizona. Oh golly. Could you imagine a career criminal murderer, drug dealer? Sammy, like he wrote a book too about like, which is just all, it's just all lies. Like it's, I don't know. The whole thing is as a whole dark stain on the American legal system in my opinion, like really is. [00:47:00] Really is pathetic. It really is embarrassing what they had to do to get John. They could have got Gotti on the numerous other things that he had been doing. They just would've had to have built a better case. No, they relied on Sam Bo Gravano to get John Gotti thrown in jail. Like it's just really, just doesn't, it just really scummy. It doesn't make the government look good at all. The failure of the government success that, and it's still what they really use today. It's the strategy of getting one person to rat on the next person higher up in the organization and it, they really haven't changed their tune very much in the almost 30 years since Gotti and newer criminal organizations are. That's what they do is they change the way they operate. And that's why, you know, they're not having as much success with cartels and that sort of thing is because the, the, the criminals have changed. The government's still trying to do the same thing that worked to [00:48:00] take down the mafia. Well, I mean, getting the guys to ride at each other is, I mean, it's not a bad strategy, right? Or trying to get guys to turn state witness. It's like, but like, when does it become too much? Like, like Sammy, the bowl is like, like a couple football fields large, too much. Do you know? Do you know what I mean? Like, Like he should have been in jail for life right there with Gotti. Yeah. Think that that's probably the biggest thing is that Sammy should have gone down with Gotti. I mean, they were, Sammy was John Gotti's right-hand man. Anything that Gotti's hands were dirty on. Sammy's were just as dirty. I think used the strategy of. Somebody gets busted with some drugs on, on the low end, like just a user. Well, you give the user a break to get the dealer and then the dealer, you get him to get his guy and like, but the higher you start going up the chain, the more D involved everybody is, and you're not, are you really doing [00:49:00] society and justice? A service by saying that somebody who's just slightly less guilty than the next guy up gets to get a free pass. Like, no, that's not how it should work. Yeah. So yeah, to kind of wrap it up like, uh, uh, John Gotti's sons and, uh, running the family for a bit, we're gonna get until him later cuz the, the. That's a fascinating story. Uh, Gotti would die in prison in, uh, 2002. And, uh, I don't know if he exactly if he said this, but I remember reading it that he actually said this and he said like, in this life you either end up in a coffin or a prison and. That's exactly what Gotti did. Like Gotti. He never broke a Marisa. He never, you know, he signed up for this. He said, you know, I'm Osa Nostra. I signed up for this for life and come what may be, you know, it's either I'm gonna probably end up in prison or I'm gonna wind up in a coffin early. And that's what happened. He wind up in prison and I'm [00:50:00] sure there was a lot of temptation to start talking. You know, like, not that he was gonna ever get outta prison, but he maybe could have gone into a nicer prison. Maybe he could have got liberties in terms of like, you know, visiting family outside of prison, you know, under surveillance obviously. But, uh, he never did any of that. This is the Marky end of our five families and five episodes, and they're really the primer and the overview is a way to get her beak wet in the the Mafia history mustache. Chris and I will do deep dives into many of the topics we've chatted about today, but definitely keep these five families. In five episodes as your reference for future episodes, you may be listening to something in a future episode and thinking, oh yeah, how did that fit in? Come back, listen to these episodes, and I think that it'll always give you a good place to set your feet into. When we get into future episodes, we will definitely be holding down this corner of the internet, so come [00:51:00] back, listen again. If you wanna reach out, email us, contact us on social media. Leave a rating and review on your podcaster of choice, but the biggest thing is we wanna hear, if you want, uh, if there's something that you want a more specific deep dive of, definitely let us know. Really, the best thing you can do is tell if your friends about this podcast so that they too can become friends of ours. Yeah, forget about it guys. You've been listening to Organized Crime and Punishment, a History and crime podcast. To learn more about what you heard today, find links to social media. And how to support the show. Go to our website, A to Z history page.com. Become a friend of ours by sending us an email to crime A to zhi history page.com. All of this and more can be found in the show notes. We'll see you next [00:52:00] time on Organized Crime and Punishment. Forget about it.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Title: Welcome to Organized Crime and Punishment Original Publication Date: 6/7/2023 Transcript URL: https://share.descript.com/view/yLZmG8rmOUx Description: Welcome to the Organized Crime and Punishment: A History and Crime Podcast. Hosts Mustache Chris and Steve will take you on a tour of the history of crime in the United States and beyond. You can learn more about Organized Crime and Punishment and subscribe at all these great places: Atozhistorypage.start.page www.atozhistorypage.com email: crime@atozhistorypage.com www.organizedcrimeandpunishment.com Parthenon Podcast Network Home: parthenonpodcast.com On Social Media: https://www.youtube.com/@atozhistory https://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypage https://facebook.com/atozhistorypage https://twitter.com/atozhistorypage https://www.instagram.com/atozhistorypage/ Music Provided by: Music from "5/8 Socket" by Rico's Gruv Used by permission. © 2021 All Rights Reserved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=210vQJ4-Ns0 https://open.spotify.com/album/32EOkwDG1YdZwfm8pFOzUu Begin Transcript: [00:00:00] Welcome to Organized Crime and Punishment, the best spot in town to hang out and talk about history and crime with your hosts, Steve and Mustache, Chris. Welcome to this very first episode of Organized Crime and Punishment, a history and crime podcast. My name is Steve and I am joined by my co-host mustache Chris. In this podcast, we are going to give you the basic, Concept of organized crime and punishment, a history podcast, and really break down what we're going to try and do in this show. Now, Chris, maybe tell us a little bit how we met and where the genesis of this podcast came from. Oh, yeah, me and you've been talking for I don't know how many years now. Four or five [00:01:00] years at least. Yeah, I don't know. We met like just via Facebook really? Right on history podcasts, arguing with people about events in history, really. And then me and you kind of just tended to agree on a lot of stuff. We're still arguing about history to this day. Now this podcast, and it's maybe we're the right rebels to make this kind of podcast, a history podcast on true crime. Now, Chris became a regular guest on my previous podcast Beyond the Big Screen, and we really started talking about very different kind of movie and beyond the big screen, but it, it developed over time into talking about true crime and especially organized crime. Yeah, initially we were, I think for first movie we were discussing like when, uh, we were talking about like, me, you know, coming on your, uh, podcast once in a while was the Prometheus and I turned into like a, almost like, it felt like a month [00:02:00] discussion about the movie. And then, you know, we've done like a lot of, made a lot of content together actually. Uh, and beyond the big screen. We also did a series on eight man outs, which was. Really cool. It ties into, cuz it's kind of about organized crime, maybe we can revisit that for this podcast that we're doing now. And then we kind of shifted, we were gonna do like a little series on the Mafia and I think we picked out like, I think it was like six movies we were gonna do initially and then I. Just kind of one thing led to another and we kept on adding movies. We kept on saying, oh, we gotta do like a background episode on this. And like more and more of the research was more about like the history behind these movies. And you know, we decided let's just do a organized crime podcast. When we started diving into the, talking about these mafia movies and we talk about this movie and that movie. We both started to feel kind of constrained that we had to tie it to a movie because there's so many [00:03:00] great stories that go beyond any movie and it's like, oh, I wish we could talk about this topic or that topic. The Appalachian conference or the uh, the story of the Colombo family. But we really couldn't because there wasn't a movie that directly tied to it. And that's where we started to think that, let's stretch this out. And that's what this podcast is really going to be about is deep dives into so many aspects of organized crime and things that you can look forward to. In this very first series our we're going to look into. The five families of New York, we're going to look into really individualized stories of the five Families of New York, focusing really in this first series about the golden age of the mafia, of how we define it, of the sixties, the seventies, the eighties, and then into the nineties. But from there we have a lot of different [00:04:00] plans to get into. Specific moments of the mafia and not even, and we're looking beyond the mafia as well. We're looking at organized crime all over the world, and that's really what we wanna try and do is bring a historical light to the true crime genre. Yeah, for sure. Cuz like we're both kind of history nerds, right? Like we mentioned earlier, we, that's how we met was just like arguing about history on history podcast pages, right? And me and you were always discussing history and you know, when we were initially kind of coming up with the idea, like I went looking and I mean there's a lot of podcasts or with mafia content. I wouldn't say a lot, but there's some, but a lot of them are more. They don't really bring like, kind of like a historical perspective to it, uh, that I, I find that we, we are gonna try to do it with this podcast where we're gonna take the material seriously. We're gonna try to do like really big, [00:05:00] deep dives into these, uh, into these subjects. So, you know, just a little teaser, we're gonna be talking about Murder Inc. And I've been writing the notes and doing the research and it just keeps on getting deeper and deeper and deeper. That's really what's unique about what we're going to do is we're following all the trails. You can put up one of those corkboards with the pictures and the strings connecting all the people. That's what we're really going to try to do. Chris nor I are historians, we're not academics. We're just really highly interested people and hobbyists who want to go. Deep, deep, deep into this topic of true crime in the mafia and take it really where it goes and where it takes us. We're gonna try and make connections throughout all of these series, between many of the different stories, because we're really looking at. Many, many parallel stories that really aren't even completely [00:06:00] told right now. The academics are still trying to figure out these stories, so we're gonna try and present it to you as best as we possibly can from the perspective of. Not academic historians, but people who are really interested because honestly, that's how the detectives are looking at it. That's how journalists are looking at it. We're trying to look at it from a lot of different perspectives. Oh yeah, for sure. And like, and just to be honest too, like there's really not, like there's some like serious academic work being done about like the mafia history in general, but in, it's one of those things that it's there, it's still relatively new. Right. So a lot of like the researcher would have you is like from journalists. Uh, it's a relatively new field, like mafia research in terms of like serious academic work where, you know, people with like master's degrees and PhDs are studying the subject as, uh, like their further thesis and, uh, thesises and stuff like that, right? Um, but [00:07:00] like, you know, we're gonna try our best to be as accurate as we possibly can. I think we both came to the agreement too, that, you know, in terms of like kind of our own personal opinions, we're gonna be a little bit more. Open about them in terms of, you know, what we think happened or what could have happened, or maybe what should have been done. So that'll be interesting. We're not gonna leave you without content on this first episode. In this first episode, you're going to get made into the Organized Crime and Punishment Podcast. Now, getting made or becoming a made man is the process by which a qualified, bonafide person is initiated into the mafia. And the process in the US evolved from a longstanding secret society initiation rules in the Sicilian and the Southern Italian Mafia organized crime. The mafia initiation process is what you would call in a. Phased in [00:08:00] ritual process, and there's many examples of phased in initiation processes in religion and other secret societies. And we can go all the way back to the Roman times with mystery cults and that sort of thing. And even in a way, Christianity initially, the way it initially handled it. Initiation into the religion was a phased in. Uh, and we can definitely see analogies between 19th century secret societies of Europe and mafia initiation. Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, there's a lot of similarities into, I mean, you can make a lot of comparisons to like, say Freemasons and. You know, we don't know much about the Rosa Crucian, but like little we do know about it in terms of the secrecy and like how you were initiated. Um, I mean, it's really how the, why the mafia was able to work so well for as long as it did was because it was a secret society that [00:09:00] law enforcement or just people in general couldn't easily enter. Now it's pretty interesting because we know a lot about the initiation process of the mafia in the United States. Really, for the most part, a person, a perspective member, had to become a known associate of an already made member. Uh, there's a famous person, uh, who he didn't become a rap per se, but he, uh, Exited the life, and he was a really high ranking member of the Colombo family. And he said, you don't sign. You don't fill out an application for the mafia. You have to know somebody who's gonna vouch for you. And then you had to become an earner, so to speak, or someone who could prove that they could make money for the organization. Then after that the books had to be open, which means that the entire mafia organization, which [00:10:00] is called the commission, which we will, we will talk about extensively in the series, was needed to be ready to take on new members and that certain perspective members met. Certain qualifications, such as they had to be 100% Italian, or even in some cases 100% Sicilian. Then there's the actual ritual of initiation, and maybe Chris, you can describe the init, the initiation process. Yeah. Most like, uh, most famously, uh, Joe Occi kind of described it. So the first time we really got a. Kind of a clear idea of the initiation process. And according to him, you would have your finger pricked with a needle. And I've heard different, like the way you described it, and then I've heard like different things. But apparently this blood would fall onto like, uh, Like a picture of a saint and then they would burn the saint. Right? When you, uh, [00:11:00] get initiated in, you basically have to say that like, this is your family. Now it becomes first before you even your own family and you know, breaking erta, you're basically saying you're signing away, you know, is a death sentence. And then that card of the saint where the blood is dripped onto, that's burned in the person's hand. Usually the most important members of the family would be at that introduction. And then there's a formal introduction. Of the gathered members of that this person is now made as a member that we've heard that we get this story from several different mob informants or former made members of the Mafia. So with some. Differences, but you can kind of probably see that the process evolved throughout time. It evolved from the Sicilians and the Southern Italian [00:12:00] organizations took on a certain flare in the United States, and then throughout the decades that slightly changed and probably different ceremonies went in different directions. As Chris alluded to, the first made member to discuss the ceremony in detail was also one of the very first high profile mafia members to testify for the government or basically what we might call rat out. His, his family members on the inner workings, and this was a Genevese family soldier named Joe Lac way back in the 1960s. So right now we're going to listen to a clip of. A Congressional testimony by Joe Vecchi and in this clip in front of the United States Senate Select Committee on Improper Activities in Labor and Management, also called the McClellan Committee. Joe vei describes the initiation ritual in quite [00:13:00] detail. Let, let's listen to Joe Ceci in his own words, explain the ceremony himself. The table, which was a long table and there was a gun and a knife on the table. And, uh, how many were at the table? About 35 to 40 and sat me down and, uh, and, and made me repeat an Italian. Did they set you down at the table or in a chair Out front. Come sat me down on the end of the table with MUN and Z doing the talking next to Mun and z. Alright. Now you sat next to him, then what happened? Well, he had the knife and a gun on the table. I repeated some words he told me, but I only could explain what he meant. I could repeat the Wordss. But they were in Sicilian. They were what? In Sicilian? In Sicilians. Didn't understand. You repeated what? You didn't understand what they meant right then they explained. They explained what they meant. Who explained Mariza well, he could [00:14:00] talk pretty good English. Mariza. He talked 12 languages. Uh, getting a good, he went on to explain that you lived by the gun and by the knife, and you died by the gun and by the knife. Yes. What kind of a ceremony did you go through? Well, then, and taken that oath. Well, then I, uh, a, uh, he gave me, uh, a piece of paper. I supposed to, you know, invite it. And, uh, well now without burning the paper, just take a piece of paper there and show us what, what, how you did it. You don't need to set the paper up, Barb, but take a piece of, give him a piece of paper. Let's demonstrate just what you did in other ways, not this piece of paper. This piece of paper is born. Paper is burning. Light it. Yeah. And then in your hand you'll say, Well, again, they give you words in [00:15:00] Italian, but I know what it meant. In other words, while you were repeating the words, you were burning the paper. Right? This is the way I brain if I expose this organization, and you would, that was, uh, you of, of the fate that was to befall you. If you betrayed the organization right? Until a piece of paper blanked, you'd be burned ashes. Right? Alright, now what else did you do in that ceremony? Then after that, they, uh, They, uh, got around a table and they true numbers, they do what numbers between one to five, for instance? How you mean? Well, here, like this throw tree or one or five, let's say the way you got a table there right now, everybody throws a number in. Otherwise we'd start down there at the table. Somebody would hold up a number of each one and hold up some fingers. Yeah, we con they could hold up as many as they wanted to. Up to five. Up to five. Well, that's about all I got over here. Well, let's say we start from you, Senator. Yeah. We start with me and let's say [00:16:00] it's 35, 40. Say I put up two, right? And here. Put up some. Yeah, you add it all up. Let's say we, you add it all up. Let's say we get a figure about 38. About 38 all. And we start from you. And let's say you go all around and it comes to, uh, Send that next to you. Yeah. He's next to me. He is my, what you call Godfather, then. He, he, he picks your finger. Who? Who? The godfather. He picks your finger. He picks your finger with a needle, makes a little blood come out. In other words, that's the express to blood relation. Supposed to be like brothers. Uh, that's the letting of blood. That's right. In other words, uh, Yes. Symbolic as a fact. You're willing to spill your blood, right? To give your blood, to give your life. Yeah. As to what I'm telling you now, I need to go no fo you to just say nothing else. This is what I'm telling you, what I'm [00:17:00] exposing to you in the press and everybody, this is my doom. This is the promise I'm breaking, that I, even if I talk. I should never talk about this and I'm doing so that's my best way to explain it. That is the highest oath you took. Right. In other words, that was the most sacred in in this organization. Right. I want you, but you would never tell this. Right? Right. So based on that clip, Chris, what do you think about getting made and what do you think about Joe ve Laci's description of this process? It's sounds intense. You know, like it's no, like, it's no small endeavor. Um, yeah. Well, I mean, it sounds cliche, but it really isn't cliche. Like when you sign up to the mafia, you're signing up for life. There's no leaving the life, you know, there's only two ways. You're really leaving the life. It's, uh, you become a rat. Well, I mean there, I guess there's three, right? You become a rat and you ride on all your friends. You know, people that you grew up with, [00:18:00] uh, you know their, you know their family, you know their kids. You wind up in a coffin or you wind up in jail, you know, it's no small. It's, it's, it's very seriously, it's a very serious endeavor when you join the mafia. And I think that Joe Ceci really shows the way, hi. He wasn't born into the mafia. His parent, his father wasn't in the mafia. His uncles weren't in the mafia. He really got, he was in the the double As if we're gonna use a baseball metaphor of crime. He was noticed by the mafia and then he met the qualifications. He proved that he was an earner and then he got brought in as a made man. He, he really exemplifies that process of how someone can move up into the mafia as a way to advance their criminal career. Yeah. You know, cuz they give in [00:19:00] and it's not necessarily, you don't even necessarily have to be like a very remarkable individual. You know, Joe Vei wasn't, You know, super intelligent. He was kind of a dullard really, to be honest with you. Like, uh, he didn't even know, like basic geography of the United States and stuff like that. Like, there's, like, they'd, they'd be asking him a question about like, oh, do you know about what was going on in this state? And he'd be turning to his lawyer and people thought he was like a, like, oh, should I be talking? He's like, no. He's literally asking like, where is this? I don't know where this is. Like you pointed out, he could earn. You know, for a long time he was loyal. He was in the mafia for a very long time before he turned rats. And there's a whole story for, you know, why he ended up becoming rats or whatever word you want to use. Yeah. He was in, in the family and he kind, you know, he never worked for himself out very high, but he, you know, he was a soldier and you know, people. People knew who Joe Vei was. This episode is meant to just wet your beak a little on what mustache [00:20:00] Chris and I are going to do in this new podcast. Organized Crime and Punishment, a History and Crime podcast, five episodes on the background of the big. Five New York families are available right now to download and listen to. You can listen on On Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify, YouTube, and everywhere else you find podcasts. Leave a rating review on your podcast or of choice. That really helps us know what you're thinking. If you want to join the conversation, follow us on social media by searching for a two Z history page, or you can email us. At Crime A two Z history page.com. More importantly, if you like what you hear, tell your friends about organized crime and punishment so that your friends can become friends of ours. Thanks for becoming friends of ours. Guys, forget about it. The music for Organized Crime and Punishment is provided by my [00:21:00] friend Rick, and the song is called Five Eighth Socket by Rico's Groove. That's Rico's groove, G R U v. To find more great music like this, go right now and subscribe to Ricoh's Groove on YouTube and Spotify. You could search for Ricoh's Groove on those platforms or find links in the show notes. You've been listening to Organized Crime and Punishment, a History and Crime podcast. To learn more about what you heard today, find links to social media and how to support the show. Go to our website, A to z history page.com. Become a friend of ours by sending us an email to crime a to zhi history page.com. All of this and more can be found in the show notes. We'll see you next time on Organized Crime and Punishment. Forget about it.[00:22:00]  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome to Organized Crime and Punishment: A History and Crime Podcast Description: Thank you for joining hosts Mustache Chris and Steve as they explore the fascinating history of crime. You can learn more about Organized Crime and Punishment and subscribe at all these great places: www.atozhistorypage.com email: crime@atozhistorypage.com www.organizedcrimeandpunishment.com Parthenon Podcast Network Home: parthenonpodcast.com On Social Media: https://www.youtube.com/@atozhistory https://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypage https://facebook.com/atozhistorypage https://twitter.com/atozhistorypage https://www.instagram.com/atozhistorypage/ Music Provided by: Music from "5/8 Socket" by Rico's Gruv Used by permission. © 2021 All Rights Reserved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=210vQJ4-Ns0 https://open.spotify.com/album/32EOkwDG1YdZwfm8pFOzUu Title: Meet the Families – The Gambino Family Original Publication Date: 6/7/2023    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.