Organized Crime and Punishment

Title: The Italian Squad: Unmasking New York's Crimefighters Original Publication Date: 10/4/2023 Transcript URL: https://share.descript.com/view/gYDhPsotOyw Description: In this episode of "Organized Crime and Punishment," we are joined by author Paul Moses to dive deep into the pages of his latest work, "The Italian Squad." This gripping narrative explores the fascinating history of law enforcement's battle against organized crime, specifically focusing on the dedicated officers of the Italian Squad. The Italian Squad, formed in the early 20th century, played a pivotal role in dismantling powerful criminal syndicates in New York City. Moses' book sheds light on their relentless pursuit of justice, often at great personal risk. Key takeaways include the Squad's innovative investigative techniques, their impact on organized crime, and the enduring legacy of these courageous officers. We also discuss the broader implications of their work in the context of today's criminal justice system. #OrganizedCrime #TheItalianSquad #LawEnforcement #TrueCrime #PodcastDiscussion You can learn more about Organized Crime and Punishment and subscribe at all these great places: https://atozhistorypage.start.page email: crime@atozhistorypage.com www.organizedcrimeandpunishment.com Parthenon Podcast Network Home: parthenonpodcast.com On Social Media: https://www.youtube.com/@atozhistory https://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypage https://facebook.com/atozhistorypage https://twitter.com/atozhistorypage https://www.instagram.com/atozhistorypage/ Music Provided by: Music from "5/8 Socket" by Rico's Gruv Used by permission. © 2021 All Rights Reserved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=210vQJ4-Ns0 https://open.spotify.com/album/32EOkwDG1YdZwfm8pFOzUu Begin Transcript: [00:00:00] Welcome to Organized Crime and Punishment, the best spot in town to hang out and talk about history and crime with your hosts, Steve and Mustache Chris. Welcome back to Organized Crime and Punishment. Steve here, uh, with a special interview with a really fascinating topic, and it's a topic that, uh, Mustache Chris and I will definitely dive into more, but this was just the perfect opportunity to talk with Paul Moses, who is the author of The Italian Squad. The true story of the immigrant cops who fought the rise [00:01:00] of the mafia. And this is a really fascinating story because it falls outside of what most people traditionally think of the mafia in the timeline of generally the later part of the 20th century. And this is going way back. So Paul, maybe you can tell us, um, what got you interested in this topic of the Italian squad? Sure. Well, I had done a previous book called an unlikely union, the love hate story of New York's Irish and Italians. And in that book, I focused, uh, I had one chapter on what it was like for people within the Italian immigrants in the NYPD, uh, to try to advance in a department that was really, uh, very much controlled by the Irish, uh, either immigrants or later generations. And they, they had a rough time of it, and the Italian community itself had, had pretty, um, rough relations with the, uh, NYPD in, in that, in that [00:02:00] era. Uh, there was a lot of ethnic friction. So, in doing that, I included a chapter that told the story of, uh, Joseph Petrosino, who was the founding detective of the, uh, NYPD's Italian squad in 1904. And from the, mostly from the point of view of what it was like for him as an Italian immigrant to try to be the go between between the Italian community and the NYPD so. His story is really interesting. It's, it's been told quite a bit, but I saw that he's after Petrosino. He's, he's murdered while on a mission to Sicily in 1909. Um, and generally stories about the Italian squad, uh, kind of stopped there, but the squad went on to 1922 and I saw that that. Part of the story really wasn't told that much. And it was just as fascinating as the better known story of Joseph Petruzzino's service. It's a fascinating story because Petruzzino goes, [00:03:00] maybe we can, before we even get into Petruzzino and the whole story of the Italian squad, they're fighting against Organized Italian organized crime, and it's referred to at that time as period as the Black Hand. What was the Black Hand? Yeah, the Black Hand, uh, was seen by many people in that time as being, uh, a giant, uh, sinister underground organization probably controlled by criminals in Italy. It wasn't that at all. It wasn't a mafia kind of thing. It was really in the isolated or independent groups of thugs who realized that if you sent a letter to somebody with a black hand on it and use enough threats that it may force somebody to to pay off. And so it actually really found its oxygen in the news coverage that made it seem like a, uh, international conspiracy. Uh, and [00:04:00] that's not to say that people using the black hand label or to be taken lightly. Uh, you know, they did many bombings, kidnappings and serious crimes that that needed to be tamped down. One interesting thing about the whole story before we even get into New York is Joseph Petruzzino, which you said, uh, you know, his story is pretty well known, but he did it. He was killed in Italy and his, uh, the subsequent leader of the Italian squad. Worked in Italy, and one of the things that I found was really interesting is like, well, under what authority was the NYPD operating in a sovereign country? And was that something that was common? Was the, did people think like, was there just no other mechanism for the FBI or what that didn't really exist at that point, but other agencies to do that? The NYPD just opens up office in a foreign country and is doing intelligence and all. And all sorts of other police [00:05:00] work. Yeah. Part of the problem was that the federal government really, uh, should have been doing this kind of work. Uh, no, it, it was a, it was a, um, authorized trip in that the police department arranged it through our state department, which in turn. dealt with the Italian foreign ministry. So, um, you know, he was there, uh, Petrosino, but he was distrustful of the Italian authorities and he didn't want them to protect him. So, uh, so, and he was. They're primarily to gather some records of people who are criminal records in Italy, which would enable him to come back to New York and get them deported under a certain federal law. But, um, so that relationship. You know, it just wasn't giving the records in the time that they needed them. So he wanted to straighten that out. He was also doing some things that may have been a little under the radar. Maybe the State Department wasn't fully aware of, like, [00:06:00] trying to find his own sources, um, you know, making connections with people that that was that part of it was a little under the radar. But he went over there, he met the, the, the chief of all Italian police in Rome, you know, when he arrived, so it was above board. What was the genesis of the Italian squad? Where did they come up with this idea to set up a special police unit of Italian, uh, American officers and detectives? It comes from really two places. One is the Italian community itself. Which felt the police really didn't understand their community couldn't speak the language and maybe didn't even care that much if unless somebody else other than Italians was a crime victim. Secondly, the newspapers were really building building up the threat of of Italian immigrant crime. And so between the newspapers and the Italian community itself, which, which really was, uh, wanted better policing, um, that kind of forced the hand of the, uh, police [00:07:00] commissioner to create a small, uh, squad headed by Petrosino in 1904. You, uh, discuss this a lot in the book, but what was the thought of the Italian American people at that time? Because you, there was a high crime rate amongst Italians. Often by people inside of their own community, but, uh, an issue that we'll get into later, some of the times this Italian squad was using some pretty rough policing techniques, what did the people think about these issues? I didn't see any broad pushback, uh, maybe partly because all the police use pretty rough methods at that time. Uh, you know, Joseph Petrosina was trained by, you know, the leading, you know, detective commander of his day. And some of that method was, uh, uh, you know, extra judicial, uh, let's say, um, and, uh, uh, Primarily, [00:08:00] the, the, really the reaction was that they, they wanted decent policing, but, uh, and they wanted it to be done by people who understood their community in some ways, a lot, like we see today, people want policing. They, they just don't want it to feel like an invading force, you know, and I think that was the same thing. And the strength of the Italian squad detectors was that they knew the community, um, and people will come and talk to them who probably wouldn't have gone down and talk to somebody. I didn't feel connected to. Um, eventually there is some pushback because, you know, leaders of the Italian community, political leaders start to say, why is there an Italian squad? Every ethnicity has gangs. Why? Why is there only one? And so eventually there was some pushback in politics against having a quote unquote Italian squad. I didn't see it initially though. I think. Italian Americans were by and large proud of the successes of these detectives who were often written about in glowing terms in the newspapers. Um, [00:09:00] certainly, among criminals, there was a lot of anger and resentment, uh, though, that was building up and that may have actually contributed to the plot to murder Joseph Petrosino when he ventured off into Italy. There was a, there was a real conflict between the... The prevailing, uh, administration of the police department and these sort of up and comers with the Italians, who was really the, running the police department in the late 1800s, early 1900s in cities like New York City? Well, I found in the early 1900s that a lot of times the mayors had a really strong hand in it, but their interest was often from a political angle. Um, Then, you know, there were the inspectors who were very powerful figures, uh, and some of them corrupt. Uh, the, um, in the mid 1890s, of course, Teddy Roosevelt famously played a role as as the head of the what they then called the police board of [00:10:00] commissioners. And he was actually the one who promoted Joseph Petrosino to a detective. Um, so, yeah, the leadership, uh, the commissioners came and went not unlike today, uh, because I think policing is a very politically sensitive issue for the mayor and I think many mayors in New York history have been undone by. How the public view the police department and what they wanted from it. Um, so mayors played a lot pretty close attention and whoever held these top posts like chief of detectives that that has to go through city hall. And at that time, that meant off mentality hall to. And Tammany Hall and a lot of these organizations were run by the Irish. What sort of political machinations and operations did these predominantly Irish police departments and governmental organizations, well, how did they operate? Yeah, I mean, [00:11:00] there was always an issue about, about corruption. There was a pretty strong reform movement to sort of Republican slash reform movement, uh, progressive that, and that, that, that movement was also somewhat anti immigrant, um, in my opinion, that there's that influence. And then Tammany is, is, you know, kind of absorbing the immigrants in a lot of ways. Um, Tammany has gambling interests. There's no question about that. So, uh, your district leaders in Tammany, uh, you know, wanted a police commissioner who was not going to get in the way of those gambling interests. So, and then the mayors themselves are under pressure from the reform side, you know, to really clamp down on, on, uh. Police graft, so those forces kind of come at mayors from both directions, and they sort of have to find their way through that. And sometimes they lean heavily towards the reform side. Sometimes they kind of give a bit so they can have good relations with certain leaders. And it does actually affect. [00:12:00] The work of the Italian squad and what it can do and not do the whole idea of civil rights. There was really, I mean, I guess throughout the whole history of the United States, and this is a theme that we discuss a lot in this current series of the podcast, but there's always been a push and a pull between. Preserving civil, civil liberties and being tough on crime. And it seemed like this, that was really playing out in particular within this discussion of the Italian squad. What were some of the abuses of civil liberties and then some of the, the pushback against that to preserve civil liberties? I, the, there was really a very wanton use of the nightstick in those days, and I don't, I don't, in a way, pin that on the Italian squad detectives. They were typically not out trying to get a bunch of people out of a bar or things like that. But, but they were very free with the nightsticks and to the point that, um, [00:13:00] eventually the people, the city elected a mayor who was, who was really an ardent civil libertarian, uh, Judge William Gaynor. Thank you. Uh, he was elected in 1910, and, uh, he made, you know, uh, police violence a high priority. He would, he would, you know, investigate the cases himself. He would get complaints in the mail and call the officers in. Um, with the Italian squad, I think their great frustration was that they often knew more than they could prove in court because people would talk to them, but they were not willing to testify. So, uh, that's where you might get a Joseph Petrosian or going to somebody and say, I'm threatening them or more. Uh, and and, uh, and so their, their use of, uh, violence centers be targeted, I think, to people, they, they thought were criminals, but, but, you know, couldn't have trouble prosecuting. Um, that that's what I noticed, uh, and looking at it closely, which is not to excuse it, but that that that's, that's, uh, kind of how it how it played out. [00:14:00] Um, yeah. There was also a big issue with what we would now call gang databases. In those days, they would post photos of people who they arrested on the wall in the detective bureau, and detectives would look at those, and then when they're trying to, you know, find suspects for a crime, they would, you know, look for those people again. And and they call it the rogues gallery, and that became a huge controversy and actually led mayor gainer to let go of the police commissioner, who was probably the Italian squad's greatest supporter. Uh, uh, general, uh, Theodore Bingham was his name, uh, sort of, uh. Teddy Roosevelt knockoff kind of, uh, not, not, not, not certainly not as brilliant as Teddy Roosevelt, but, but very brusque and, you know, I can do anything strong and he made a lot of enemies, especially in Tammany Hall. And eventually, you know, the mayor removed him, but, um, over, over this whole issue of the Rose Gallery. Uh, so, yeah, um, civil liberties, I guess, issues are nothing new. People were concerned about [00:15:00] them back then also, um, as they are today. Steve here. We are a member of the Parthenon Podcast Network featuring great shows like Scott Rank's History Unplugged Podcast and other great podcasts. Go to ParthenonPodcast. com to learn more. And here is a quick word from our sponsors. I found that dub. Mayor Gaynor was a really, probably one of the most surprising people of a book full of surprising people. I think you could have transported him to 2010, and he would be on the cutting edge of civil liberties. Yeah, it's rare to see somebody who's so ardent a civil libertarian get to a position, you know, uh, at like mayor of a big city and, uh, yeah, he, he was, uh, uh, you know, old fashioned, uh, uh, you know, very tough, uh, uh, [00:16:00] tough guy. Brilliant, could have been president. Even people thought he was shot while he was in office by a disgruntled office seeker and kind of lingered in office with the bullet still in his throat. He died before his term actually ended. Um, this is kind of a sad story, but he was, had been a Brooklyn judge who took on the machines in Brooklyn, you know, and fought his way up and he was a maverick, true maverick. And, and, and I think in that era, that, you know, progressive era, you know, people like that. Uh, Tammany eventually backed him just because they wanted to back a winner, but he, he had no use for Tammany, even though he went with their support. Maybe we could talk a little bit more about Tammany because Tammany is always looming in the background. What is their power? Because they're starting to, they really start to fade out. Is there, is this peak Tammany at this point, even in the early 1900s? Well, they had a boss named Charlie Murphy, who was pretty brilliant [00:17:00] and not, not a boss tweet type who, who was a hundred percent thoroughly corrupt. Uh, um, and, uh, you know what, they were the ones reaching out to immigrants. Uh, they had, uh, uh, the boss on the Lower East Side, big Tim Sullivan was, was he, yeah, he was totally in bed with the gambling. Probably prostitution interests, but he was also the 1 who was, you know, providing services and going to the legislature to try to get laws that would, you know, help help working people, you know, in the factories. Uh, also famously passed the, um, major gun control law of New York state, uh, the Solomon law, which only recently got struck down by the Supreme Court. Um, so I kind of. I guess, as a kind of former newspaper reporter myself, I always kind of view them as totally corrupt. There's been a book by a historian and journalist, um, uh, uh, Terry, Terry Galway that that takes a somewhat [00:18:00] revisionist view and actually, in some ways, Tammany was really the ramp for some of the reforms of the, um, that, that theater, uh, Franklin Roosevelt made later, you know, through Al Smith, that concern about working people was also there. So it's. It's not a big, massive evil, but they weren't, yeah, they did, there was a lot of mischief. Um, uh, uh, and, uh, I wouldn't say they were solidly behind the working person, an immigrant too, because they had other interests that would undercut that sometimes, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's more nuanced, I think, than I thought before I started researching the book. Yeah. You see that so many things in your book that Tammany is really pro immigrant, but then you have big Tim Sullivan, who passes, gets this law of, uh, gun control, the Sullivan Act, like you said, that just, uh, was overturned, as we're speaking in 2023, about a year and a half, two years ago, and that was, you [00:19:00] would, Say that it was an anti immigration, uh, law. What was sort of, um, what was the gun laws before and maybe what was the impetus of all of a sudden in that time period to get guns off of the streets, especially done by Tammany? Yeah, this is the law that involved, you know, concealed carry and, and required a permit, uh, which was not going to be granted to, uh, to Italian immigrants, most likely. Uh, in fact, that was an issue that some of the parties raised in the recent Supreme Court case, uh, which actually did hinge on the history of, of, uh, gun laws. But, um, so it made it a felony, uh, it did a number of things to, to, to, you know, crack down on, uh, on gun crimes. Um, I found it impossible to read Big Tim's motives, uh, because he did arrange between reformer and, you know, ally of mob. So, um, uh, but certainly in the newspapers, [00:20:00] the law was looked at as something to stop, uh, immigrant crime, especially by Italians, but others also, uh, Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe and others, but, um, uh, actually the events that. Yeah. Really triggered it were the shooting of mayor gainer, which had nothing to do with an immigrant. And also there was, there was a, an author who was, who was murdered in Gramercy Park and, uh, and that, you know, had nothing to do with immigrants either. So, uh, yeah, it was portrayed as a measure to bring immigrants under control. And certainly some of the judges who sentenced people applied it that way and said, so, um, you know, this will your kind is going to. You know, not do this anymore. You shouldn't be carrying guns. Of course, some Italian immigrants carried a gun because they, they, they were afraid, you know, and, and, uh, but there was a lot of gun violence. I also want to say it's, it's Italian immigrants were not [00:21:00] exceptionally prone to crime. There was a problem with violent crime. A good part of that is because the Italian migration was mostly young men compared to other migrations. So young men. On their own, you know, yeah, they were crimes, mostly crimes of passion and stuff that, but if you looked at the numbers of people arrested, Italians weren't out of proportion. They, they were not heavy drinkers, which often causes a lot of crime. So I don't want to say there was no problem. There was a problem with violent crime and, and this kind of growing gradually organizing crime, but. There was a widespread belief that Italians were prone to crime and, and it really was not true. And it was the Italian squad detectives kept trying to tell that to reporters. They knew all the reporters, but somehow usually got lost by the side beneath the size of the headlines, you know. And there must have been an aspect that the Italians, like you said, they were majority young men, which young men commit a lot of crimes [00:22:00] compared to others, and that the Italians were the first major group to come who didn't speak English. They had. At least, you know, um, we have discussed this in other episodes. There were German immigrants, but they were often wealthy and landowners, and they didn't, they weren't crime suspects generally just because of their situation where you have this massive, uh, influx of people who were Catholics, which wasn't, and to a lesser degree, the Jewish immigrants who were coming who didn't speak English and who were of a different religion. Did that play upon the people who were... In the power structure and the people who are writing these newspaper articles. It certainly did. And there's one other factor, which is kind of out of our worldview now, but was very much a part of it then. And that's the whole eugenics thing, where you believe that by the shape of people's skull and things like that, that it tells you what race is [00:23:00] inferior or superior. And Germans actually, even though they may have spoken English when they arrived, would not have that, that didn't tar them. They were Teutonic, you know, whereas Italians, Jews, anybody from southern Europe and Italy, the further south, you know, they, they had this idea that people were genetically inferior and therefore, no matter what they did, they wouldn't make good American citizens. And people like the Italian squad commanders, Petrosino and those who followed him, they knew that they knew the people, they knew that they worked hard, that they were good people. And they kept trying to get that point across, uh, with not great success. We'll get into some of the brutal crimes that the squad addressed, but maybe we can just talk a little bit more about their methods. So you brought up the rogues gallery, and I believe that's where that term was invented. That's pretty common place now. Third degree was another one that [00:24:00] I think was, uh, innovated with them. What were some of these methods that they use? Well, the superintendent, you know, who, uh, uh, was from the late 19th century, uh, Thomas Byrne, he, uh, he was known for the third degree and, uh, it involved, you know, uh, brutal questioning, uh, uh, he might, he might've said it didn't necessarily involve physical violence. Um, but, you know, yeah, it was common and that's where the 3rd degree, uh, comes from. And I think you're right about the rogues gallery. Also, um, it was an early form of intelligence gathering. They would also do the Bertion method, which was a Frenchman designed this to take a very, very detailed measurements of the suspects body. Uh, and and that was a form of criminal identification and fingerprinting was just coming into in this, uh, this decade. A lot of things happening in law enforcement in that period. Um, so, yeah, that [00:25:00] that's all happening. Yeah, you can really see at that time period where fingerprinting is a way to identify people. That's. Holds on to being scientific, but then a lot of these ideas that were very unscientific, but had an air of scientism to them, like measuring cranial features, really do people discover that those aren't exactly workable. Yeah, that was really terrible, because... It wasn't, this wasn't like the uninformed people. These were like leading professors who were backing this up and writing about it in scholarly journals. Uh, so, yeah, this, the so called smart people, uh, lean towards, towards that. And that I think affects how, how the courts, the journalists, how everybody kind of viewed this, this so called Italian problem, uh, at the time. Some of those, some of the major crimes that happened were really brutal, especially if you think [00:26:00] about the mafia and later generations. They were things that they generally did not do in the United States, like kidnapping on a really massive scale. What were some of the really, uh, big crimes that the, that this Italian squad was fighting against? Yeah, maybe some of their major crime. Well, uh, there, there, um, there was a wave of kidnappings and, and these would become national news. Uh, and they were really heartrending cases. Uh, so we have, we do have a series of, of children who were kidnapped. Some are returned. Uh, in some cases they're not. Um, and, uh, we have 1 interesting case. A little bit later in the period around 1920, where they used a woman police officer, who was the only, uh, probably the first Italian American woman, uh, in the police, in the, uh, in the department, uh, Ray Nicoletti, and they placed her with the family whose child had been taken, [00:27:00] and, uh, she poses like a visiting cousin, but she was quick to recognize You know, who was doing this, there was a man living across the street who kept looking into the apartment and she asked the family about that man. Oh, he's a good friend, you know, and and she knew that that's often how these kidnappings got started. Some so called friend of the family and then he came over and was offering to, like, I used to be in a gang. I, I can deal with these people. I'll negotiate it for you. And that's often the person who's part of the gang. Uh, and and so she helped them to get. The, um, uh, the, the, the suspects arrested, uh, unfortunately, uh, the bosses then sprung the arrest too soon. Um, and they never recovered the, the victim, uh, they brought the defendants to the, to the station house and they, they just beat them brutally all night and, and let the, the [00:28:00] little missing little boy's father do the same. Uh, yeah. And, you know, they, they just never got it. And that little boy was, was murdered by the gang. Uh, and they never got the main suspects, but it was, it's a, it's a sad case, but it's an interesting case. And it's interesting that really, as a, as a woman, a woman stepped into, uh, uh, uh, To really, uh, make the case, which, which was a big news, her picture was on the front page of the daily news when the arrest for me. So that was 1 of the, uh, the many kidnapping cases that there were, um, uh, and people always were unsure whether to cooperate with the police or just pay off. You know, so that was always an issue in many different cases. What was the gang situation that the police and the Italian squad was fighting against? It really wasn't what we would later consider organized Italian American crime. Was this really very diffuse at this [00:29:00] point? It's gradually becoming more organized. There was one group in the first decade of the 20th century that Joseph Petrosino and his successor, Anthony Vachris and others recognized as, you know, a more powerful crime group. And, uh, there's a book by historian, uh, Mike Dash called The First Family that tells the history of, of that, uh, crime group, the Lupo Morello. Family, Giuseppe Morello, Ignazio Lupo. Um, and so they are coming together. They're probably the ones all evidence points towards them who are responsible responsible for Joseph Petrosino's murder in in Sicily. Um, they both came over from Sicily, fleeing criminal charges. Um, they were not poor people, they came over, you know, people of some means that were like, middle class, I would say, when they arrived and set up businesses. And, uh, so, so that's, [00:30:00] that's a group that is sort of a crime family and differently from, you know, the black hand types, they had connections back to Italy too. Um, back to Sicily and, uh, but the others were, were, were smaller gangs that eventually started doing what gangs can do is, you know, they start developing, uh, sources of income, regular sources of income and putting it into buying businesses and, and, and real estate and, and, uh, so you, you, you do start seeing this, This forming, uh, as you get into the later 1910s, early 1920s, but it's, it's really prohibition that in the 1920s makes these gangs powerful. That, that, you know, and unfortunately that's around the time they disbanded the Italian squad in 1922. So, uh, the two going together is, it's not a surprise by 1930, you really have the. More the genesis of what we would [00:31:00] call the Mafia, American Mafia now, I think would be fair to say. Steve here again with a quick word from our sponsors. Yeah, that's a, that's fascinating that the, just as the Italian squad is phasing out, that's when they really the pedal to the metal with the, with These, uh, Italian, um, American crime organizations get started. Well, why was this, uh, band, uh, Italian squad broken up? Well, some of it is just internal politics of the police department. Who was favored, who was not. And they folded the, uh, the Italian squad into the bomb squad, um, which was at the time politically more important because they were very concerned about radicals. Uh, there were bombings, you know, anarchist bombings and so forth. Um, there were a lot of arrests of people who just had political views were not [00:32:00] criminals, but, but, uh, but there was, there were issues with, with, with radical bombing, certainly some very serious ones. Um, so they were folded into the, uh, bomb squad, but really not, uh, that was really the end of it. They, they weren't, the bomb squad was not effective in, in, in doing the things the Italian squad had, had, had to do. You know, I don't think, uh, catching the bootleggers was a huge political priority for the mayoral administrations in 1920s either. They, they're always defending themselves. And, you know, but so I think that's part of it too. I mean, there was a virtual outdoor marketplace, you know, like, a couple of blocks from from police headquarters, not. Not where they were selling the actual booze, but where their deals were being made, uh, outdoors, you know, street corners, right, right, right there, uh, near the police headquarters in lower Manhattan. So, yeah, I don't think there was a lot of zeal for breaking up those gangs, uh, you know, also. So [00:33:00] it's a combination of things. Didn't the Italian squad, uh, in large part break up, or at least kind of break up that first family, the Lupo Morello family? Uh, yeah, although the, the Secret Service, um, really did the heft there, provide the heft because, uh, it, it was a counterfeiting case that sent, uh, Lupo and Morello to jail for, uh, I think they both got very long sentences for counterfeiting, I think, because everybody sort of knew they were, they were also killers, but that, that wasn't, you know, part of the case. Uh, Italian squad detectives helped with that. Um, the head of the secret service in New York, uh, uh, William Flynn, uh, not long after became the chief of the, uh, deputy commissioner in charge of detectives. And especially like working with the Italian squad. Uh, then he went on to head the entire secret service. And then he, uh, went on to head the Bureau of Investigation, [00:34:00] which later, which not long after becomes the FBI. Um, so, uh, so he, he had a lot to do with, with those prosecutions. That Lupo Morello gang and the whole counterfeiting issue, that really seemed to me like that. felt more later mafia than just random gangs. And you really do get the feeling that they were setting up something that would blossom into what we really know of as the mafia. Yes, I, I think, and, and Mike Dash traced that in his book, you know, how they become the first family, uh, even in, you know, 1908, 1909, they owned, they owned, you know, importing businesses. You know, restaurant, things like that. They, they had their business interests. Um, they start, you know, they just start working on different levels. And, and so, you know, that's. The, the Luo Moreo family, uh, [00:35:00] that 'cause they're brothers-in-law. Um, it's like a, say a mob name. More, more familiar to people who know about the 1930s would be chiro Terranova. He was part of that family, the so-called artichoke king, right. He controlled the artichoke market and stuff like that. Um, so yeah, they're taking over different, uh, commodity markets locally and, and becoming that kind of, Enterprise, we would, we would say we would call the American Mafia. And the last couple of sections of your book, and I highly recommend people go and read it. I think they can listen to it. I think it's a very nice version. You really get into the, uh, the rest of the story, so to speak, on a lot of these people. And one of the things you mentioned that I thought was really interesting, and I don't think. I don't think I really knew of it, and most people probably don't. People who are even aficionados of the mafiaa know that Moreo really kind of trained Joe, the [00:36:00] boss, mazare, who uh, later on trained some of the bigger, the biggest names like the, uh, Genovese and Lucky Luciano was the, but, but, but at this point, the Italian squad is pretty much gone. As a squad, but those officers, a lot of them are still around. Did they ever try to tap into these guys to take on this next generation of the mafia? I mean, there are, um, there, you know, there are cases, uh, that are developed. A lot of times it would be the D. A. who like Manhattan D. A. or somebody who would step forward to, uh, to push it. Uh, like, with Luciano, um, but yeah, no, there are like, actually, Joseph Petrosino had a nephew who became a very accomplished detective. Uh, and that nephew has other descendants who are involved in New York law enforcement still. Um, but, um. Yeah, I, I didn't really study the thirties, but, but that's, [00:37:00] there's been a lot of written, a lot of written on the mafia in the thirties in New York. And, and, uh, I didn't get the impression that the, the, the, the police were, were, uh, as big a threat as maybe some federal agents might've been at that time. Uh, so, yeah, although, uh, you know, LaGuardia becomes. Mayor, and he certainly, uh, was clued in to, to fighting, uh, racketeers. Yeah. It seemed that a lot of the, the really. The, the cops that were, you know, really hard working in that department in that squad got pushed off to the margins. I mean, was it Vakris who was pretty much literally pushed to the margins where he was made the, I mean, you'd almost call him like the sheriff of City Island, which I didn't even realize City Island was a part of New York City proper. But I mean, back then that might as well, it seemed like that might as well have put him in Alaska. Uh, Vakris. Was the head of the Italian [00:38:00] squad after Petrosino. In fact, he was the one who went to Italy to complete Petrosino's mission immediately after the murder, which, you know, took some, some bravery. Um, and I thought he was a very good cop. He was both a good commander, but also a good detective himself. And he, he, uh, I guess he was not much of a politician because when the mayor and the police commissioner started to cut the Italian squad down to nothing. Not that long after Petrosino was murdered and he was this huge, uh, you know, martyr and everybody in the city, you know, wept for him and then not long after the, you know, they're cutting out the, the squad that Petrosino headed, um, and he, he started to, you know, make some waves and question that and in Brooklyn, the DA did a grand jury to investigate the closing of the Italian squad and. He went in and testified before, and so pulled him out of [00:39:00] his post, his head of the Italian squad, uh, and sent him up to city island on patrol duty to on patrol. Not not as a detective anymore. He lived in Brooklyn. So, in those days to get to city island by by transit was like, you know, like a 4 hour trip or something. And so he would just like, sleep over in the police station there at night and. So, yeah, they, they gave him what I think the police now call highway therapy. They, they, uh, and, um, even when he wanted to retire, they blocked his retirement, too. He had to go to court. He also had to go to court to get his rightful promotion to, to detective sergeant, uh, earlier on in his career. So he was always, you know, he, he was an excellent cop. And, and he always had, and You could see that because judges, everybody had a good word to say for his work. Um, but yes, he was very much marginalized. And I guess 1 thing you do notice is that most of the Italian squad detectives, [00:40:00] you can't really pick. A particular 1 and say, ah, he's a victim of discrimination, but when you start, you just do start seeing the pattern is that they're making very big cases and they're having a lot of trouble getting promoted to detective 1st grade. And almost no Italian detectives hold that rank. So I think there, there was discrimination against that. I think it. The early 1930s, the, uh, Italian American police formed their, they formed the first ethnic association in the police department, the Columbia society. Um, and, uh, there's most many other groups are like that exist now, but they were the 1st. Yeah. One of the parts that I really enjoyed thoroughly about your book is that you included a lot of addresses. So you could look up on Google Maps and look in some of the buildings. There was one of the houses. I want to say that it was Vacris's house, that it looked like it was built at about the time you said the current building that's there. And you could really feel that you were in these places. I felt that that was a really, [00:41:00] uh, I wish more books would do that where you really had. Put yourself into the place and time. Thanks. I, I mean, I like to do that. Um, because, you know, I know I would want to see know where that house was. And, and, uh, yeah, I hadn't thought of that. You can look it up on Google Maps. The city archive also has online. You could see all the buildings that were photographed in 1940. So that gives you, uh, you know, Uh, even closer time period to see what the building looked like, uh, back back at that time. So, yeah, I, I, I, it's, I think visualizing the places is important. You think that the Italian squad helped Italians move from being a immigrant marginalized group and to really the mainstream? I do 1st of all, just by being, uh, sort of heroes to the public, you know, hero cops. I think that we've seen that with succeeding generations of [00:42:00] immigrants and minority groups to that that that that plays a role. Um, I think they. Eventually, the Italian community, you know, becomes very much a part of the police department to the point where you get to the 1960s, and they were just as opposed as the Irish to, uh, say, creating a civilian oversight board, you know, uh, that was a big 1 of the big issues in the 60s. And, and, you know, play a major role in the police and fire department to similar situation. Um, so they do play that role. I, I think they, they help make Italians a little more trusting in the, in the police department that they can never overcome when they would make a big case. That only seemed to tell the public more that Italians were bad people because here this big headline. So, uh, uh, and and so I can't say if they won that battle on their own, but eventually, uh, this is actually kind of how the Italians and [00:43:00] Irish came together is the theme of the previous book. I did, uh. And some of it does have to do with people in the public eye like Joe DiMaggio, Frank Sinatra, and I think the Italian squad cops are, you know, in there, uh, also in their way. You get to 19, LaGuardia's last mayoral campaign in the 40s, uh, he, he, he goes against Paul O'Dwyer, who, uh, no, William O'Dwyer, who was, um, Irish born, uh, and defeats him, but more Italians voted for O'Dwyer than for LaGuardia. So, you start to see the lines getting blurred, and after World War II, the two groups start to intermarry in a big way. Um, so, yeah, I think they contributed to that, but, but it was a fight that they couldn't win on their own. I wonder, you, this is such a, uh, personality and character driven, uh, non fiction book. If the, of all the people [00:44:00] who you profile, and I'm sure you did, I mean, the, so much research and you're trying to get into the minds of these people, if there was one you could meet and have a cup of coffee with, who would you, who really stuck with you? Well, I really admired Anthony Vakaris, uh, and I knew him a little better than most of the others because He, uh, his family had kept a diary that he had of the undercover trip. He took to Italy. Uh, so, you know, through a diary, you get to know somebody a little more intimately. So I think of all that's a great question. I hadn't thought of it, but I think, um, that's my, my immediate reaction is I, I would like to meet and interview him. I'm a Brooklynite and he was a Brooklynite. Uh, in fact, I, I sort of discerned that he, he had a very close relationship with the Brooklyn's major newspaper, the Eagle, which. So Tend to say what he thought, whether it was attributed to him or not. So, um, yeah, I would, I would like to sit down and have a, maybe a coffee or a beer with, with, with [00:45:00] accuracy. Yeah. You think this is a theme that you'll, I mean, not to move past this book, because people should really check it out, but is this, are these themes you want to, you're developing more in future projects of. I don't have anything on the table right now. I'm supposed to be retired, but I like to do this project at some point. Um, but no, I'll, I'll speak on the book and maybe try and develop something, something cinematic from it. And, uh, but, uh, I don't think I'm gonna, uh, do another 1. I'm, I'm, I'm half Italian. My mother's parents were both from, uh, Calabria and Basilicata, and I've explored that in two books. So my, my father, uh, late father was a, a German Jewish refugee from Hitler. So a number of people have said to me, well, what about the Jewish side? So, so I have to, I have to think maybe of, uh, of looking there too, for, uh, for, uh, uh, a story. We'll see. Yeah, there's definitely a story there. And I think that this is a, This would be a [00:46:00] great project for a movie if somebody's out there looking to produce a movie. I think that this could be a really great movie. Well, thanks. I hope you're right. I've been, my son, you know, is a writer, screenwriter and television writer. And so we've been working together on putting together something. So hopefully, you never know. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. Uh, if people want to hear more or learn more about this, they should definitely check out your book on The Italian Squad, The True Story of the Immigrant Cops Who Fought the Rise of the Mafia by Paul Moses. Thank you so much for coming on, Paul. Well, thanks so much, Stephen. It was really enjoyable chat. I really appreciate it. You've been listening to Organized Crime and Punishment, a history and crime podcast. To learn more about what you heard today, find links to social media, and how to support the show, go [00:47:00] to our website, A to Z HistoryPage. com. Become a friend of ours by sending us an email to crime at a to z history page dot com. All of this and more can be found in the show notes. We'll see yous next time on Organized Crime and Punishment. Forget about it.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Coming Soon on Organized Crime and Punishment! You can learn more about Organized Crime and Punishment and subscribe at all these great places: https://atozhistorypage.start.page www.organizedcrimeandpunishment.com Click to Subscribe: https://omny.fm/shows/organized-crime-and-punishment/playlists/podcast.rss email: crime@atozhistorypage.com Parthenon Podcast Network Home: parthenonpodcast.com On Social Media: https://www.youtube.com/@atozhistory https://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypage https://facebook.com/atozhistorypage https://twitter.com/atozhistorypage https://www.instagram.com/atozhistorypage/ Music Provided by: Music from "5/8 Socket" by Rico's Gruv Used by permission. © 2021 All Rights Reserved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=210vQJ4-Ns0 https://open.spotify.com/album/32EOkwDG1YdZwfm8pFOzUuSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this special compilation episode, Josh Cohen of Eyewitness History shares his favorite interview moments and stories from people who witnessed some of history’s most extraordinary events. First up, revisit his conversation with Frank DeAngelis, former principal of Columbine High School, recounting the harrowing events of the 1999 massacre. Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3Ow8UF0 / Spotify: https://sptfy.com/OWMr  Next, dive into the world of podcasting with the podfather himself, Adam Curry. Discover the fascinating tale of his MTV days and presenting an award to Michael Jackson. Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3Df7jgn / Spotify: https://sptfy.com/OWMt  CIA Agent Valerie Plame takes the spotlight in the next segment, shedding light on the notorious 'Plame Affair' of 2003. Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/48gSyYx / Spotify: https://sptfy.com/OWMw  Sports enthusiasts, get ready! HBO Boxing legend Jim Lampley shares his experiences covering the 1980 Winter Olympics in Lake Placid, including the unforgettable 'Miracle on Ice.' Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3YeyxNZ / Spotify: https://sptfy.com/OWMx  Jonestown cult survivor and writer Eugene Smith takes a solemn turn as he revisits his journey through tragedy and survival. Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/451VIgu / Spotify: https://sptfy.com/OWMz  Rock music lovers, stay tuned for insights from Ken Caillat, the record producer behind Fleetwood Mac's iconic albums, including the Emmy-winning 'Rumors.' Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3rhuyEb / Spotify: https://sptfy.com/OWMB  Hear from DEA Agents Steve Murphy and Javier Peña, the real-life heroes who took down Pablo Escobar, inspiring the hit Netflix series 'Narcos.' Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3r5Cf0h / Spotify:  https://sptfy.com/OWMD  Podcasting sensation Jordan Harbinger shares his adventures and observations in North Korea. Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3JXYmfe / Spotify: https://sptfy.com/OWMF  And finally, wrap up with a legendary performance – an interview with Queen's keyboardist, Spike Edney, discussing their iconic set at Live Aid in 1985. Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3Roxxp6 / Spotify: https://sptfy.com/OWMH   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The New True Crime Original Publication Date: Transcript URL: https://share.descript.com/view/QWoFx383Nq0 Description: In this episode of Organized Crime and Punishment, we had the pleasure of interviewing Diana Rickard, the brilliant author behind the groundbreaking book, "The New True Crime: How the Rise of Serialized Storytelling Is Transforming Innocence." Diana took us on a captivating journey through the world of true crime narratives and how they have evolved with the advent of serialized storytelling. Diana shared her deep insights into the impact of these gripping narratives on our perception of innocence, drawing from her extensive research and expertise. We delved into the ethical considerations surrounding the portrayal of real-life criminal cases in serial formats, exploring the blurred lines between entertainment and journalism. #TrueCrimeEvolution #SerializedStorytelling #InnocenceInFocus #CrimeNarratives #AuthorInterview You can learn more about Organized Crime and Punishment and subscribe at all these great places: https://atozhistorypage.start.page email: crime@atozhistorypage.com www.organizedcrimeandpunishment.com Parthenon Podcast Network Home: parthenonpodcast.com On Social Media: https://www.youtube.com/@atozhistory https://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypage https://facebook.com/atozhistorypage https://twitter.com/atozhistorypage https://www.instagram.com/atozhistorypage/ Music Provided by: Music from "5/8 Socket" by Rico's Gruv Used by permission. © 2021 All Rights Reserved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=210vQJ4-Ns0 https://open.spotify.com/album/32EOkwDG1YdZwfm8pFOzUu Begin Transcript: [00:00:00] Welcome to Organized Crime and Punishment, the best spot in town to hang out and talk about history and crime with your hosts, Steve and Mustache Chris. I want to welcome everyone back to Organized Crime and Punishment. This time it is just me, Steve, uh, here. Uh, we don't have Mustache Chris, but I am very excited to be joined by Professor Diana Ricard, who is an associate Professor in the Department of Social Sciences, Human Services, and Criminal Justice at the Borough of Manhattan Community College, which is a [00:01:00] part of CUNY. And she is the author of another book, Sex Offenders, Stigma, and Social Control. But in particular today, we are going to talk about her latest book. The New True Crime, How the Rise of Serialized Storytelling is Transforming Innocence. It's a fascinating book, and I think maybe the, uh, how we can start this out is maybe you can tell us a little bit about yourself and maybe where the genesis of this book came from. Oh, I'm... Very actually excited to talk about that because, um, it came from my interest in wrongful conviction, which actually came from a personal connection of a family member of a friend of mine and an interest in where wrongful conviction fits into different. Concerns in criminal justice or criminal justice reform or criminal justice issues, and I kind of had [00:02:00] trouble as a researcher finding where my place was in the conversation, in part, because there's so much good journalism, like, as an academic and a scholar, it was hard for me to find what I could contribute when there's, you know, the innocence project has so Um, offered so many important case studies and analysis, and there's so much really good stuff out there if you, if you look and in that search, um, I just became aware of these amazing documentaries and I, and more and more people were mentioning them to me, um, in my introduction to the book, I, I talk about how people kept telling me I should listen to cereal. I should listen to cereal. And when I saw Making a Murderer in December of 2015, so quickly, there was a huge outcry in response to that. I knew I had something [00:03:00] here about the synergies between entertainment, wrongful conviction, true crime, journalism, news. You know, popular culture and, um, that's how I got started in this podcast. We're really trying to not follow the standard true crime genre that we're trying to inject it with looking at it historically and maybe trying to be a little bit more objective. And I wonder. Uh, is it possible, this is one of the things that you brought up and it's, it's always been in the back of my mind is it, can you be entertaining and objective at the same time? Do you have to create a narrative, which by its whole definition has to have good guys and bad guys, protagonists, antagonists? So I don't think I, I don't think being objective and being entertaining are necessarily in [00:04:00] conflict, but what the reason I chose the specific series I focus on is because they open up the problem of perspective of point of view. And I'm really fascinated, fascinated by how they destabilize what is truth. And they make us question who has the authority over truth. So I chose only cases. I did not choose documentaries that covered cases where the person had been exonerated. So the, I chose to look at documentaries where the journalists or entertainers, because it is, these are absolutely. Acting as entertainment, um, question the official outcomes and unpack those in a way that raises so many questions. And a lot of people come away from these convinced that the person is guilty, convinced that the person is [00:05:00] innocent, but what these. Series have done is explode our sense of faith in in the certainty of these verdicts. So I think even, you know, a lot of these are criticized for, for not being objective or definitely for, you know, excluding this response that the prosecutor had, or not talking to this person or sensationalizing. This person. Um, but the other thing they do is they also make us aware of those things. You know, so I don't think any of the filmmakers or that Sarah Koenig of Serial would say, Oh, yes, I have the final word. And this is, you know, the complete, objective, definitive truth or version of the truth. What do you think with, um, in our society, you discuss it and it's something that I've definitely seen. I've seen it in very stark terms, the schizophrenia. [00:06:00] That we have with crime. And I, uh, I'm a teacher by trade and my first job out of teaching school was teaching at a maximum security prison and we would have a movie day and we were watching, uh, you know, a standard, uh, Crime film, and they were all on the side of the police, and I think that that's something that in as probably America. I don't know outside of America, but we can just focus on America. We're both want to be tough on crime, but we also don't want innocent people to get railroaded. How do we put those 2 ideas together? So the, the word you use schizophrenia, I would call more ambivalence and conflict and, you know, are kind of warring sentiments and, um, and also how we can be led to sympathize with the different. Characters, you know, again, getting back to whose [00:07:00] perspective we're looking at. Um, I, I teach this issue. I was just in my class the other day discussing what we call the crime control model versus the due process model, which is get the bad guys at whatever cost. Or worry about the civil liberties of the defendants, even if that that means, you know, tying the hands of prosecutors and, you know, I think. I think we have to look at these things, both, you know, an individual case by case basis, but also what I encourage my readers to do, or I hope they take away is look at the broader cultural context because, you know, right now our. Um, political, you know, right now we see these conflicts between politicians that are running on law and order and politicians that are running on, on racial justice. And, um, the way we understand the individual issues are also being [00:08:00] framed in this broader issue. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think you're really getting to something there that. It's those two ideas, at least to me, don't have to be completely separate. You can be tough on crime, but also we have a system that's designed to be fair. Why did you pick these in particular? In my, um, second chapter called the new true, I go over the criteria that I chose. Um, and I'm calling these a sub genre of the true crime genre. So one reason I chose them, most of them are highly popular, you know, so they're culturally relevant because a lot of people have listened to them or watched them, you know, I mean, particularly making a murderer where, you know, Barack Obama was asked to weigh in and pardon him. And, you know, the response to serials unprecedented. I, like I said, I chose [00:09:00] cases where the outcome is left, um, questioned, you know, but I, I chose cases specifically where there was not an exoneration, you know, or a confession of, you know, the real killer. So you, so people have to decide from for themselves. Um, I also chose. Uh, stories that were told over multiple episodes, um, for a few reasons. I think this is part of a new way that we watch stories and consume stories. For some reason, a lot of us have a lot of time to watch TV. I mean, making a murder is a total of 20 episodes, but people are really interested in all of the details. And these, um, These documentaries and, you know, serialized podcasts are much more complex than like the two hour feature documentary of 20 years ago on the same subject, you know, which would be the thin blue line. We're [00:10:00] capturing the Friedman. Do you think that, uh. People as a generalist, the audience, did people look at these particular shows like Serial? Do you think that, yeah, Serial or the other ones that you covered, do you think that they maybe focused more on that particular case? And did, do you feel that people took that, what you could learn from that and apply it more broadly to other cases where it, because those were very high profile cases, but I mean, it happens every day where people Can't afford a very particularly good lawyer or they have lawyer, it's public defenders who have a gazillion cases and, you know, have no particular time or sometimes even the skill to really crack a case or they have the, uh, When I, I was for a short time, I worked for the city of Philadelphia and for people who were just slightly not poor enough to qualify for a [00:11:00] public defender, we would give them a list of at that time, 500 lawyers and Uh, Again, they maybe weren't Clarence Darrow to put it, uh, kindly. Do you think that, to, to make a long question short, that these pe that, um, the audience is focusing in on just this particular case, or are they able to analyze it to broader, more broad problems in the system? Well, um, unfortunately what, you know, I didn't do like a systematic empirical study, but I did spend a lot of time reviewing social media posts about these in great detail. I have an entire chapter on, um, basically Redditor's response to these and unfortunately, I did find that most people champion. You know, or champion Stephen Avery and not as much discussion of the [00:12:00] more systemic problems in the criminal justice system, as I would have liked to have seen, because all of these do bring up the issue that you bring up of, you know, underfunded. Defense attorneys and all of these, these cases benefit, like you said, they're high profile. So they benefited from the exposure that allowed them to have more resources put into their defense. But all of these series show problems with forensic forensic work. All of them show a lot of problems with policing and coerced confession. There, there's abuses of prosecutorial problems and Brady violations and when you look at Redditor's response in some ways, they're very and I think most American viewers at this point are very sophisticated about their understanding of different aspects of criminal justice between all the crime news [00:13:00] and, you know, all the trials we've seen on TV and all the shows that we've watched. You know, I think viewers are pretty well informed and they're on Reddit. There were, you know, very important discussions about these things like Brady violations or bad forensic work, but for the most part, I did not see them applied in a bigger way. You know, other than, you know, this must be this must mean, you know, Michael Peterson is guilty or this. Oh, 1 thing I did. I going back to this idea of problematizing truth. 1 thing I did find is that a lot of people. Would say something to the effect of, you know, this person might be guilty. I'm not sure, but definitely the state did not prove their case. And to go back to what you were saying about due process or crime control, I think it's very interesting that a lot of people felt if the [00:14:00] state didn't prove their case in a murder conviction, that would. You know, mean someone going away for life that, um, that takes precedence over. There's a good possibility they did it. It hasn't been proved by the government. Steve here. We are a member of the Parthenon Podcast Network featuring great podcasts like Mark Vinette's History of North America podcast. Go over to ParthenonPodcast. com to learn more. And now a quick word from our sponsors. Maybe we can take a quick discussion first because I think maybe a lot of people aren't aware with what is a Brady violation. Okay, uh, thank you for asking. A Brady violation is when the prosecutor fails to turn over evidence that could possibly help the defense. So, in our system, and, and again, to go back to what you were saying about underfunded defense attorneys, the, the government [00:15:00] has a lot more resources to put into its case. And at the point in the trial, that's called discovery, like, after the prosecution gets an indictment, which the defense is not there for that. That is just the prosecution going to a grand jury and showing the grand jury what they have. And getting an indictment. Um, at that point, there's what's called discovery and the state is supposed to show their hand. They're supposed to say, you know, this is what we have and they're also supposed to turn over things they uncovered that could legitimately help the defense. And that's called a Brady violation, and that has happened in most of the cases in the series that I watched. And, um, and that points to, you know, sort of corrupt or dirty playing prosecutors and that it also points to the, um, you know, the. [00:16:00] The, the, the big power differential between the prosecutor's office and the defense. Now, Arthur, generally speaking, I mean, this is hard to say, and like you said, it's, uh, it's more of a, uh, qualitative, uh, investigation than a quantitative one, would you say? I mean, to take it from, uh, to try and be a, a. Maybe a 10, 000 foot view. Do you think these Brady violations are purposeful in the most part, or are they just incompetence? Are they overlooking, um, have, have you seen, and maybe if you take these case studies you looked at, did you get the sense that they were just blatantly, we're going to try and get it, get away with this? So, um, there's very, there's a lot of really good, good research that, um, this, this book is, is not just me watching these documentaries and, and saying what I think there's, there's a lot of research on, [00:17:00] on. A lot of this, and there's a lot of, um, understanding of what happens in prosecutor's offices and the culture of the prosecutor's office. And most of what I've read. It does not appear. That overall, this is happening because a prosecutor wants to lock up someone they know didn't do it. Um, it, I feel comfortable saying for the most part, the, the law enforcement and the prosecutor's office has some good faith that the person they are prosecuting did it. And again, to go back to the crime control model. We have to catch the bad guys regardless, but what happens is when we have, um, the larger culture and the political court culture. Organized around fear of crime, it gives the prosecutors and it gives law enforcement this excess of power to do that. Um, and [00:18:00] a feeling of righteousness. Of doing that, and then they're in these series that I watched, um, and some of them do show like conscious malfeasance of, you know, real bad faith actors. Framing someone and I was thinking about this for your podcast because I know your listeners are interested in organized crime and in these series, the, the lens is pointed. At the government, and if you haven't read it or seen it, the innocent man is very interesting is the only nonfiction work by John Grisham. Uh, about, you know, uh, some wrongful conviction cases in Ada, Oklahoma, and in telling this story, they paint a picture of organized crime involving the prosecutor's office and the sheriff's office, you know, [00:19:00] kind of being involved with the, the, the drug scene. You know, and drug dealing in this small town. And again, this is what I think is really interesting about these series is they force us to reconsider who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. Do you think that in a way that the, the true crime, especially true crime done well can be a check on prosecutors and the, the government? So I think it, it could be in theory. But what you see, so these series, so the other, another reason I showed them is they, I chose these is they have different follow up episodes where you kind of see the consequences of the series on the case. So, you do get, um, prosecutors and law enforcement responding in some ways to what the documentarians did. And in these cases, they're very defensive. And angry, they do not say, oh, yeah, you gave me something [00:20:00] to think about there. Um, what and and so I don't know how, you know, I don't I can't quite answer that question. I, I think it could have that effect. Oh, also. Um, I, I think the culture is changing towards criminal justice reform and towards a really critical look at all of these things. And I was saying to someone, you know, Adnan Syed was released last year to great fanfare, and people attributed serial to that and Sarah Koenig's work, and she has not wanted to take credit for it. Um, 1 thing that happened in the time from when she made cereal in 2014 is the legal culture in Maryland change and they have conviction integrity units and they had, they changed their laws about juveniles convicted of life sentences or 20 getting 20 years or more sentences. And so [00:21:00] that is part of. People in the system starting to take, starting to look critically at themselves and starting to be responsive to constituents who want, who want to be, who want them. To play more fair and look more critically at their power. So I think these series are part of that, but I also think these cultures of law enforcement and prosecute tort prosecutors offices are really entrenched. You know, maybe it feeds into that, but we can take a step back or we can take a step back and discuss some of the problems with forensics because forensics and things like DNA were promised to be. This is science. This is incontrovertible. What are some of the problems that have come up with forensics? So DNA is considered from what I know, it's considered still considered somewhat of the gold standard of. Scientific evaluation [00:22:00] of evidence and the, the DNA revolution in 19, in the late 80s, early 90s, when these tests became available in to the criminal justice system is, is the start of the, the modern innocence movement, because they were used to exonerate people who were on death row and that, you know, that's where the innocence movement, uh, the innocence project steps in. And, you know, got a lot of publicity for saying, Hey, this DNA proves that person a could not have been the rapist. And this proves that this other person could have, um, and very few things have that degree of certainty. But what we see with the forensics in these shows is. Much more questionable and problematic, uh, scientific analysis. There's a lot about the inaccuracy of hair analysis. [00:23:00] Um, you know, and if you watch, you know, shows like CSI, if you watch, you know, sort of television dramas, they put a lot of stake in things like hair analysis and blood spatter patterns. Um, and, you know, bite mark analysis has famously been disproven and has, you know, led to, you know. Real miscarriages of justice, quite tragic ones. So in these series, we, we see those I less do we see any criticism of DNA does seem to be, you know, um, like I said, that gold standard. It, it does seem though that, uh, the, it's almost, the prosecutor has to get a conviction, you can't have a, a high profile murder and then just say, well, you know, we don't really know who did this and, you know, we don't want to just convict somebody to, you know, You know, or we want to convict somebody, and sometimes, like you said, for the most part, they genuinely think that it's that person, but do you think that within prosecution offices, [00:24:00] that there becomes a group think that, yeah, most of the evidence does point towards this person, and then it just, it takes on a life of its own? Absolutely, this is called tunnel vision. What happens, what often happens, this is a generalization, but what often happens is early in the investigation, when, when they, you know, at the police stage at the detective stage, they start focusing on 1 suspect as the likely person and what that does is just psychologically, you know, this confirmation bias comes in and they don't, so Take seriously other possible leads and they, you know, just, you know, unconsciously, maybe discredit these other things and they have this real focus on what they've decided is the right thing. And so things that point in that direction become over emphasized and other leads aren't followed. And in the, [00:25:00] and this is this is something we see play out in some of the series I talk about, you know, and then the same thing happens in the prosecutor's office. The prosecutor gets a case from the, you know, from the arrest and from the detectives who, you know, and they, and it expands from there. You know, the confirmation bias and the tunnel vision and and then also the defensiveness around that. And then also what you said about convictions, like, you know, prosecutors careers are based on their record of convictions, not their record of, you know, due process respect of due process. It seems like such a big. Issued a reform now because you have big city police departments have a lot of crime and a lot of, you know, investigations that come in. So they have a resource issue and then smaller departments. I mean, all the way down have issues of resources and them. And skill [00:26:00] level, the big cities have a lot more skill, in a way, because they're getting a lot more, they have more, uh, practice, you might say, where the smaller departments have less practice with, uh, with investigations of big crimes. Is there a way to fix any of this, or to reform it in any way? I believe there is, and not to point attention away from my book, but a few years ago, Uh, the journalist, Emily Basil on wrote a kind of important book called charged that that looks at conviction, integrity units and prosecute prosecutor's offices and all of these issues, like, like I said, conviction, integrity units, um. were responsible, at least in part, for Adnan Syed's release. There definitely are ways of reforming it part, but, but I think that one of the biggest obstacles is this sort of the, the culture of conviction, um, both convicting someone in the [00:27:00] criminal justice sense, but also being sure in your convictions of who, who is and isn't guilty. What you said about these, um, outside of big cities, the skill level is actually something I, now that you're saying this, I think I didn't explore it enough other than a lot of these take place in rural areas with, um, with poor defendants, but also the, the law enforcement, you know, the law enforcement in a small town in Wisconsin is not the elite. You know, it in the bigger landscape of the U. S. And that that is that is really interesting. The sort of, um, lower class dynamics. It's almost actually, I think I, I didn't explore it that much, but I think I talk about conspiracy low, because there is a way that some of these documentaries. The, um, the story of [00:28:00] malfeasance is related to these conspiracy movies that we also love, you know, the corporate conspiracy, political conspiracy parallax view kind of thing. But the. The bad government actors are not those powerful elites. They're just like regular Joes. Steve here again with a quick word from our sponsors. I saw an interesting, uh, discussion that in a way it's A lot of small towns, their police departments are dissolving because the small towns don't have the resources anymore to support a police department of even a couple of officers. And a lot of that power is, uh, evolving or devolving, I guess, going up to County sheriff departments that have a little bit more, uh, resources and a little bit more [00:29:00] institutional knowledge of these things. And in some cases to state police departments. And I guess it always has that push and the pull of localism is in a lot of ways good. And then having a bigger picture is good. Do you see that that might help in these situations? Especially, you've talked about some of those, uh, like in that one in, um, I, I'm totally blanking on the name. The one John Grisham did, uh, that it was a small town that was kind of corrupt. Yeah. So, um, one, I don't know if this directly answers your question, but. In terms of the smaller budgets of local law enforcement, um, something of important aspect of this issue is when people are exonerated. The state or the law enforcement officers are sued and Oh, restitution and the more this, the more DNA exonerations, the more critical focus [00:30:00] on convictions is leading to more of these exonerations that are becoming very expensive. And I don't know if you saw making a murderer, but where it starts is that Steven Avery was. Um, exonerated in 2003 for a rape conviction earlier, um, and that, that sort of corrupt local Wisconsin police force. And there was a very expensive lawsuit where these officers were named and the argument is, is that then for the neck that the murder he was charged with, he was kind of framed by them. And he had to, um, he had to plea a settlement rather than keep his case going so that he would have money to defend himself, um, against these new charges. So the cost of these exonerations is, is a heavy, heavy burden. And there's also, um, a series that came out, I believe last year [00:31:00] on max called mind over murder. That really, um, I see you're nodding your head. It really looks at both the emotional and the financial costs on a very small community. Of, you know, having to pay for an exoneration. Well, that is really interesting that in a lot of ways that civil litigation can help move these things. But then so often, I mean, it's very difficult to sue a police officer civilly. There's a huge bar to get overqualified immunity. And I. Think it's virtually impossible to sue a prosecutor for prosecutorial misconduct. I mean, that's an even higher bar. Is there a way that, because in a way they, you police and they need to be protected because they are kind of going out on a limb with these things, but also that's a lot of protection as well. Right. So, um, uh, agreed that [00:32:00] prosecutorial immunity is a high bar. Police immunity is also a high bar. And there's also a real reason that you do want some kind of immunity so that we don't have, um, our police officers and our prosecutors being sued left, right and center to, to the point that they, they can't do anything, but, um, a lot of these cases can go forward and the government has, you know, a duty to To the community to to not do these abuses. So, um, in terms of how some civil litigation has more teeth than others. I'm, you know, I'm not sure, but the, the Stephen Avery case in 2003 had had a lot of teeth. He had a very, very good case and. Yeah. Oh, also because part of what it is, it goes back to the, um, the tunnel vision in the Stephen Avery case, they turned away information about who turned out to [00:33:00] be the actual perpetrator and a similar thing happened in the case in the innocent man. What do you think for some people for, um, if they wanted to ask your advice on how to make things this new true genre, what are some things that producers should really look for when they're doing cases like this? How should they design a program so that, you know, they can stay Be objective and do something that isn't sensational because a lot of true crime is very sensational. Doing this study, what are some big picture ideas you came up with? Well, um, you know, these are all media products. You know, making Netflix. You know, the, these series have to be bought by, you know, these big entertainment. Companies that are not going to buy things that they don't think people will watch. So that [00:34:00] is built into the batter. Um, I think what I already see happening and what I would suggest. Is find new ways of. Changing up the formula, you know, so there's a podcast called murder in alliance where the journalist Maggie Freeling kind of, you know, starts with this, you know, wrongful conviction innocence formula that we've seen, like, she, she and her investigators are going to go out and, you know. Look at this case of this person who was convicted, you know, with the idea of wrong stuff happened here and we're going to exonerate them and it kind of ends with her and her investigator thinking they were played, you know, and this person might have done it. And I thought that was very interesting. You know, like, this is another version of the story. There are 2 series. So 1 of the things. That is [00:35:00] happening here that we see is in all of these. It seems like the filmmakers and the podcasters have a better investigative tools and capacities than law enforcement did. So, this is an era of the citizen sleuth. This is the era of an average person who is not a trained criminal justice professional going out and figuring things out, you know, taking it into their own hands. Um, and related to that are these recent series I've seen both on max, the burden of proof and, um, murder at Middle Beach, which are both, um, young filmmakers who there was a murder in their past, a murder in their family when they were children. Sort of taking the camera, you know, along these lines and trying to solve the case, which involves trying to get their dads to commit, you know, confess to a crime on camera. Um, but so [00:36:00] these are, you know, these are new iterations of the true crime genre, you know. Um, solving a case or, um, criticizing the criminal justice system. There's also something that has not gotten a lot of attention that I refer to in my book is I highly recommend people watch free meek on Amazon prime, which looks at a case. It plays with what we mean by innocent because it looks at a case of someone who did commit crime, but who gets so caught up in these oppressive practices that have to do with with probation that get this fellow this, you know, sort of successful rap artist more and more entrenched in the system. So, how do we, what is our system doing to people that are guilty? That is that is beyond fairness, you know, that that victimizes the guilty people in a way that we don't want our criminal justice system doing, what do you think about the democratization [00:37:00] of media where people can have an independent podcast? There's YouTube and the other services that are full of basically. Just a, a guy with a camera, and in a lot of ways they're exposing a lot of things that are happening with the, the government and with the police. Do you, what are some of the pros of that, but what do you see as some of the cons of the, that they're not on YouTube and places like that? They're not, they don't have the big budget and they're not on the big. Streaming services, so they have more freedom to make some different choices, but then again, they have less checks on them as well, right? And I think the less the less checks and not being bedded. Is what the potential problem is there because they can make claims that a journalist can't they can make claims that [00:38:00] a prosecutor can't that, you know, they can say whatever they they want. If I went out and took a camera and started. Trying to unearth, you know, the big mystery of the stolen bagel, you know, at my deli, I have, I can do a lot of things that an investigator can't I'm not bound by 4th amendment protections. You know, I can go through someone's garbage. You know, I can go into someone's house without them without a warrant. Um, so there, there are problems inherent in that. I do think it's also exciting. Um, and I, I think that's what the draw is like with with cereal. After I don't remember a couple of episodes of cereal, someone from high school. Called up and I was like, I saw him that day. I was the girl he talked to a witness came forward, you know, other people came up with evidence. The appeals attorney. This case was covered in the HBO film. [00:39:00] The case against admin by Amy Berg, the appeals attorney said this was the 1st crowd source investigation. I had, you know, he had the benefit of 1000 thousands of people going out and trying to solve this case. And so I, I think that stuff is exciting personally, but, you know, we definitely have to be. Careful of it. And we also have to be careful of using that things to criticize law enforcement or, you know, criticize journalists because because they do have rules and regulations that are important for them to follow. It's made me think a lot too about, um. Like citizen journalism where something happens and the person, yeah, it's great if they can get a thousand people to call the police department to, to complain. But that to me, you get, you get all sorts who will call and they, you know, they might not always be the most professional in manner. It [00:40:00] almost seems like you can, you're almost encouraging law enforcement to build a bunker mentality that, you know, anything we do, we're going to get a thousand people calling our office when we normally get two people calling in a day. I think it's good. It's bad. Are we just kind of back? You know, we always wind up in the same place with these new technologies and we're always just trying to figure out how to move forward with them. I, I don't know. I see I see the ways that it is that it is bad and dangerous. And certainly, you know, we don't want police departments glutted with so many false leads and people thinking they've solved the crime that they that they can't do their job. Um, but I also think people, I think it's exciting that people feel they can go out there and they can contribute and they can find something, find something out and. But yeah, it [00:41:00] does bring up those problems a lot, and it does make, um, law enforcement and people trying to do their jobs very defensive, it does create that bunker mentality, it might be exacerbating the us versus them blue wall that is part of the problem. I think that people if people are really interested in true crime and innocence and how how our system can be. Uh, reformed and look just even if you're not interested in those things, you should be because they're that they really are the topic of the day. I definitely highly suggest people go read your book, The New True Crime by Professor Diana Ricard. I thoroughly enjoyed the book. I wonder if, um. Is there a series you're watching right now that you didn't mention in the book? And you've mentioned a few, but is there one that you would suggest that people, as soon as they're done listening to this, go and watch [00:42:00] right now or listen to right now? Well, um, this is, this is not a series. This is a book that just came out that is getting a lot of press and interest. I have not read it yet, but A Threat of Violence by Mark O'Connell. Revisits a case in Ireland, that, that sounds very interesting. Um, I'm not watching a series now other than the, the two that I mentioned, but I will say I saw a very funny movie called Vengeance with B. Novak, which kind of mocks the idea of an elite. Urban, you know, latte drinking podcaster going to a poor rural community and solving a crime and, you know, it kind of takes the things that we're talking about to the next level and popular culture where it's, it's become actually a cliche. Um, but I look forward to the next true crime, wrongful [00:43:00] conviction, documentary, and fortunately, people are always recommending things to me now because of this book. So, um. I'll get back to you with the list. Yeah, you'll have a lot of watching to do, I'm sure. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming on and discussing your book and discussing these really important issues of crime and law enforcement. It's a fascinating topic. Thank you so much for the opportunity. I really enjoyed this discussion. You've been listening to Organized Crime and Punishment, a history and crime podcast. To learn more about what you heard today, find links to social media, and how to support the show, go to our website, A to Z History Page dot com. Become a friend of ours by sending us an email to crime at A to Z History Page dot com. All of this and more can be found in the show notes. We'll see you [00:44:00] next time on Organized Crime and Punishment. Forget about it.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Coming Soon on Organized Crime and Punishment!You can learn more about Organized Crime and Punishment and subscribe at all these great places:https://atozhistorypage.start.pagewww.organizedcrimeandpunishment.comClick to Subscribe: https://omny.fm/shows/organized-crime-and-punishment/playlists/podcast.rssemail: crime@atozhistorypage.comParthenon Podcast Network Home:parthenonpodcast.comOn Social Media: https://www.youtube.com/@atozhistoryhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypagehttps://facebook.com/atozhistorypagehttps://twitter.com/atozhistorypagehttps://www.instagram.com/atozhistorypage/Music Provided by:Music from "5/8 Socket" by Rico's GruvUsed by permission.© 2021 All Rights Reserved.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=210vQJ4-Ns0https://open.spotify.com/album/32EOkwDG1YdZwfm8pFOzUuSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Title: Game of Crimes: Mafia Hitman or Serial Killer Original Publication Date: 9/20/2023 Transcript URL: https://share.descript.com/view/ryW2CowG6ow Description: Join Mustache Chris and Steve are joined today by veteran police officer and crime fiction author Frank (https://www.frankzafiro.com) to play the game: Mafia Hitman or Serial Killer. You can play at home and see if you can beat us! Send us your score and thoughts on the fuzzy line between two different kinds of mass murders. #TrueCrime #MafiaMysteries #SerialKillers #CrimePsychology #CriminalProfiling You can learn more about Organized Crime and Punishment and subscribe at all these great places: https://atozhistorypage.start.page email: crime@atozhistorypage.com www.organizedcrimeandpunishment.com Parthenon Podcast Network Home: parthenonpodcast.com On Social Media: https://www.youtube.com/@atozhistory https://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypage https://facebook.com/atozhistorypage https://twitter.com/atozhistorypage https://www.instagram.com/atozhistorypage/ Music Provided by: Music from "5/8 Socket" by Rico's Gruv Used by permission. © 2021 All Rights Reserved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=210vQJ4-Ns0 https://open.spotify.com/album/32EOkwDG1YdZwfm8pFOzUu Begin Transcript: [00:00:00] Welcome back to a really special episode of Organized Crime and Punishment. This episode, we are going to wrap up Season 1 of Organized Crime and Punishment, where we really talked a lot about the murder involved with the Mafia. And the way we're going to wrap it up is with a little... We're going to play the in show style of Serial Killer or Mafia Member. So we're joined by our crew member, Frank Scalise. I believe this is, we've recorded other episodes with Frank, but this is the first time you're actually meeting Frank. It's kind of weird the way that lined up. But this is our first introduction to Frank, you're going to learn a lot more about Frank in future series. We are also joined by none other than our very own Mustache Chris. And Mustache Chris is going to take the hosting duties today, and he is going to be our host in our game show [00:01:00] of Mafia Member or Serial Killer. Yeah, we, we'd been, we thought about coming, we came up with this idea and we thought it'd be a little bit fun and then, uh, we got in touch with Frank and figured, you know, this would be a good episode to have Frank come on for, and this is one of those tougher questions when it comes to the mob, but I suppose, but I suppose crime in general, like the difference between, say, a mafia hitman and a serial killer can become pretty blurry. Like, Many mob hitmen, uh, have a much higher body count than most serial killers, like, um, you know, mob hitmen also, like, are notorious for, like, cutting up the bodies after the fact to help. You know, with the help, uh, have them not get caught, obviously, right? You know, throwing the body parts in dumps and stuff like that. Uh, but, uh, the truth of the matter is, uh, many of the mob hitmen, they enjoyed killing people. And some of them... Some of them it comes across like they just kind of saw it as a [00:02:00] job like, uh, you know, if you look at the likes of, say, Harry Strauss or Roy DeMaio, we were looking at, you know, body counts that go high above even the Green River Killer, who I believe still in American history is, has the highest, uh, body count. You know, the typical argument that I, uh, find is people say, like, well, serial killers enjoy, like, sadistically killing their victims, whereas mob hitmen tend to just get the job done as quickly as possible. And I think, for the most part, that generalization is, uh, Is correct, but there there's examples where it doesn't entirely fit. What do you guys think? Well, uh, this is Frank here, uh, saying hello to your audience for the 1st time. We'll chat some more in future episodes. And, uh, but for this 1, I, I think I would say that the difference between a serial killer and a mob hitman. Is a matter of compulsion. I think that most [00:03:00] people that and let me back up a step. I think you could clearly label a mob hit man as a serial killer by the letter of the definition. I mean, they meet the criteria, but I think in popular parlance when we say serial killer. We're not talking about a mob hit man, you know, and so the difference to me is that compulsion, a serial killer kills from a very deep place that they're compelled to do so for sadistic and psychological, uh, reasons that are pretty terrible. Um, and while I guess some hit hit men might enjoy their work, I think it's a job 1st and a hobby 2nd and it's, it's not that way for serial killer at all. And I should mention, uh, even though we will more properly introduce Frank in future episodes, Frank's not just shooting from the hip here, Frank was a 20 year career police officer and a crime fiction writer, so he definitely [00:04:00] comes to this with some cred. Although I was never a homicide investigator, so I might just be full of crap, but I have to, I have to agree with frank on this is that I think it comes from a different place. Like you said, there's probably mafia hit man and people in that who enjoy. Killing, but it's not there. The killing for enjoyment, I think, comes secondary to the business aspect. I mean, there's I had never I haven't seen many studies of this, but there are people who were in the military who kind of blurred the line. And I think in any business where killing is a part of the, uh, Is basically a job requirement. You're going to draw in some people who might not be there for the best of intentions, but it still is the secondary aspect of it. Yeah, I also think, like, if you look at some examples of serial killers, they tend [00:05:00] to, like, inflict, like, extreme sadistic pain on their victims, or do, you know, entirely weird things with the bodies afterwards, or, like you say, you look at somebody like Jeffrey Dahmer, and Dahmer, his whole M. O. was, I wanted to get the killing is over. As quickly as possible. He didn't like that part of it, but he would make works of art with the bodies. He would, uh, you know, eat them, right? And from all, from all I've read about the mob, I haven't come across a hitman that did. Stuff like that. But then we consider, say, somebody like David Berkowitz is considered a serial killer. And what did he do? He just simply just walked up to people in cars or on the streets and shot them. And that's, you know, that's all he did. Um, But as serial killer go, serial killers go, he's kind of a little bit of an oddball. I mean, not all serial killers, um, for sure, but a lot of them have a sexual component to, to their killing, even if they're not. Doing those acts, there's a [00:06:00] psychosexual component there. Um, yeah, kind of melded with the whole power dynamic and everything else. And so, you know, I, I, I, I hear the expert on the mob stuff, but I don't know if there's too many mob guys that even if they're enjoying the power of being a killer and taking a life, I don't know that they're getting a sexual thrill or satisfaction out of it. Not, not too many. Like there, there's, We just finished a series on Murder, Inc., and one of the guys was, uh, he enjoyed it. I mean, there's no way to sugarcoat it. He was a sexual predator, right? And he enjoyed it, uh, um, I'm trying to think of, um, oh, his name is escaping me right now, but Pauly from, um, the movie Goodfellas, the actual character, Paul Vario, he was, uh, I believe he was convicted of rape twice, um, so he, there was no component there, but it's not something that, uh, I've come across a ton of, but there are examples of, uh, um, there are a few examples of, of it. So, uh, are [00:07:00] you gonna, are, would you be willing to say that it's more of the outlier than the, the rule? Yeah, I would say, like, generally, like, the, the, I would say the rule is, like, as Frank pointed out, serial killers kind of have a compulsion, um, I would say serial killers enjoy inflicting, like, kind of a sadistic pain on their, uh, victims, and, or doing weird things after the fact with the body, um, And there's a sexual component to it all, right? That goes kind of, well, I mean, it's a dominance factor, obviously, right? But, uh, um, I believe it goes a little bit further than that, uh, but there are, I would say that's generally the rule, uh, the difference between, say, a hitman and, and, um, Like a serial killer, but there's there's examples outliers, uh, like David Berkowitz is an example of this. I mean, you look at somebody like Rory DeMeo and depending on who you're talking to, this guy probably maybe killed up towards [00:08:00] 150 people. Now, he was doing it strictly as business, like you could say, but he was definitely enjoying what he was doing. Um, but yeah, but there's always kind of exceptions to the rules. And I, I mean, I, that's where I kind of find it. A little bit of a fascinating subject because, uh, it's those exceptions that makes you pause and think and go, you know, I mean, could we like, it's weird that we don't consider Roy DeMeo is the say the highest have the highest body count and, you know, for killing and in the United States, but we consider the Green River killer. I mean, I don't know. It's interesting to think about to me. I mean, yeah, he was killing other criminals. He wasn't. Yeah. Killing prostitutes and defenseless women, but I mean, he was still killing people to me. It really boils down to the job aspect of it. And obviously I disagree with the, that it's a criminal job and it's bad, but it was still a job function for him. And he [00:09:00] did get enjoyment out of his work. But DeMeo. He all, uh, towards the end, he seemed psychologically damaged by his lifestyle, where I think most of the serial killers, and I'm no expert in that by any stretch of the imagination, but any of the serial killers that I've seen are not psychologically damaged by the things that they've done. They're almost proud of it when they get busted. Yeah. If anything, it's, it's fulfilling something that they need to fulfill or they feel like they need to fulfill. It's almost the opposite. I'm in the green river killer when he got, um, when he got caught, he was like chumming it up with the police. Like he was, you know, like they were finally on the same team or something. Like he had no idea. And, uh, uh, Dennis Raider, the, the btk killer, he was kind of the same way. Like he just didn't. Well, it was like all the games up now. Yeah. And then there's like [00:10:00] even a, even another example as a curve ball, you know, you look at somebody like the Zodiac killer, you know, they never found out who it was, but he's like a mixture where like, he would like, I don't know, he would like tie people up and like make them wait for a while. And then like, there's other times you just, you just straight up shot people. And it's like, I don't know what's going on there. That one's always kind of perplexed me. I'm, I, I'm not entirely convinced it was one guy that did all of that, but yeah. I think it might've been a couple of different people that use like the Zodiac thing, uh, to make the police think that maybe it was one guy doing it all, but I don't, I'm not a police officer. I didn't investigate the case, but, um, I just use that as an example. I was doing some research, uh, quite recently for, uh, one of the books I'm working on now, and I was curious, like how many serial killers are solo and how many. You know, how many partner up and as best I could find with, uh, the assistance of detective Google, um, it's [00:11:00] about 10% of serial killers are multiples are couples usually. And they're, uh, more often romantic couples than not, but not always. So 90% of serial killers are lone wolves. This is what it comes down to there. Yeah, which in the case of Mob Hitman, they're not doing it by themselves, they're using, I mean, it's usually one person doing the hit, but it's usually multiple people in terms of disposing the body and, um, even setting up the hit. And that probably is a psychological way to boost up each other's confidence to do something that's really unnatural, you know, for most people, is to kill another human being. Why? I mean, it's perverse, uh, way of looking at masculinity that's in the mob, right? Then they call it making your bones, right? But like, you know, you got to be a real man, you know, kill somebody and not care about it. Um, and in a lot of ways, it's kind of how cults work, right? Like they, they break you down, right? And then they screw up your [00:12:00] sense of morality. And instill their own sense of morality. I mean, my saying that the mob is a cult, but in terms of like alternative societies and, um, say, I don't know, use an example like the Freemasons, right? Uh, secret societies. This is kind of what they do to people. It's kind of necessary to really join it. All right, with this prelude, uh, why don't we jump into the, your first scenario, Chris, where you explain a situation and then Frank and I are going to try and decide whether it is a serial killer or a member of the mafia, and we will be keeping score. You didn't tell me we were keeping score. We have a man that, uh, that is hanged on a meat hook by his feet. And then how does his face wrapped and, uh. Uh, wrappings that have been, uh, smeared in gonorrhea [00:13:00] discharge causing him to go blind. If you had to guess, was this the, uh, mob job or was this done by a serial killer? Now Steve, you want to alternate who goes first so that we keep it fair? I'll let you go first, Frank, because I remember this one. Oh, you do? This one really stuck with me, so. Uh, this sounds very vengeful, and it sounds like something somebody would do to make a point. Like, maybe they saw something they shouldn't see, or, or something. Uh, it sounds to me like a, a mob hit. And not the work of a serial killer. I'm gonna go with serial killer. I'll give, uh, Frank a head start on this one. This is actually, it was, this was done by Dutch Schultz and, uh, and his, uh, his partner. Uh, quite early in his career. Uh, so I guess I'll go on to question 2. Oh, wait, did you, did you, did you actually know that one? And did you, did you throw that round? I [00:14:00] threw that one for you. Oh, that's bull, man. No, I'm amending the score. Alright, we'll call this one a wash. Score's 1 to 1. I don't want any handicaps if I win. If I win, I want it to mean something. If I lose, I want it to be real. Even though we're from all over North America, once, um, one of us lands in one of our areas, we'll owe each other one a beverage of their choice. That sounds like a fair bet to me. Steve here again. We are a member of the Parthenon Podcast Network, featuring great shows like Josh Cohen's Eyewitness History and many other great shows. Go to Parthenon Podcast to learn more. And now, here is a quick word from our sponsors. Alright, so question two. Uh, when asked what happened to the body after [00:15:00] it was shot, this person in a deadpan fashion simply replied, I cut his heart out. If you had to take a guess, was this a reply from a serial killer or a mob member? I'm up first for this one. I, um, I'm gonna say, that sounds very Mafia like to me. I'm gonna cut out your hearts. Unless, yeah, I'm going with Mafia. Yeah, I have to agree that that's, that's, uh, that sounds like a cold, hard hit man and who, uh, is, is taking care of business for the cop. Oh, it was actually, yes, it was, uh, it was Dutch souls again. He, uh, he shot his, uh, former bodyguard and, uh, his lawyer saw him do it. And the lawyer actually later saw that the body was, it was somewhere on the side of the road or in the newspaper was saying that the heart had been ripped out and he goes to Dutch. Yeah. What's, what's going on here? Like, I, I saw you shot him, kill him, but what's with the heart? And he's just like, Oh, I ripped his heart out. Don't worry [00:16:00] about it. I cut out his heart. Forget about it. Dutch really did walk the line. Yeah, I really, he really did. Like he's, yeah, he's. Crazy. On to question three. Here we have a man that was kidnapped and then tortured for hours, being sodomized, cut up, and then was ritualistically killed in a human sacrifice. If you had to guess, was this done by a serial killer, or... The mob. Well, unless this was the familiar satanist or something, you know, I, it doesn't sound very mob. Like to me, this sounds like a, like a, uh, serial killer and, and, uh, maybe a devil worshiper and a little satanic panic coming true here. So I'm going to go with serial killer on this one. Yeah, I think I have to go with Serial Killer, the same one. That's, uh, very, very bizarre. And I could see maybe Arthur Flangenheimer might go, he'd go [00:17:00] maybe 80%, but I don't think he'd go full 100% of that scenario. Well, I gotta break it to you guys. You guys are both wrong. This is actually done by Adolfo Constanzo and he was famous for running a drug cartel in Mexico. That also was a cult that ritualistically sacrificed, uh, their victims and the guy that he killed was, uh, was, uh, Mark Kilroy. He was an American. And this is eventually kind of what brought this, uh. This drug cartel down. Um, kind of reminds me a little bit, I don't know if you guys have seen the movie Predator 2. Yeah, it kind of reminds me a little bit, like this, this Mexican drug cartel that was also like a human sacrificing devil worshipping cult is uh, I'm, I'll be completely honest with you. I'm surprised more people don't know about it just because it's such a crazy story. I mean, there's a movie about it too, and I [00:18:00] haven't watched the movie. Maybe I'll watch it tonight. Um, yeah. Is the movie Sicario? Is that what you're talking about? No, it's, uh, uh, yeah, it's a Sicario. I watched some mass murder going on in that movie. Yeah. Um, yeah, and then they, uh, yeah, they killed like a, a, a number, like a fair amount of people in this fashion. And it kind of reminds me of, uh, that, that movie Predator Two, uh, with the, the Jamaican Voodoo Gang, that's, I don't know, they're like ripping people's hearts out and stuff like that. I don't know if you guys seen The Predator two of Danny Glover. Yeah. Um mm-hmm. . That's kind of what reminds me of a little bit. When was that approximately then that murder, and when did they operate? 1989 was when they, uh, they killed Mark Kilroy. And this is the one that was the murder. That was the that was the thing is they went after Americans and that's pretty much like as soon as they found the [00:19:00] body and stuff like that. And they found out what was going on there. The Americans are like, okay, well, we got to take care of this. If they had maybe just stuck to other Mexicans, they who knows how long. They would have been around for. I mean, it's crazy to think, like, these guys were bringing in, like, crazy amounts of money running a cartel. They had tons of weapons. They're all high on blow. And they're devil worshippers. You know, it's almost like they're channeling the old Aztec spirit or something like that. Like, the old Aztecs, like, ripping arts out and stuff. There was a video game, um, it wasn't Call of Duty, it was Ghost Recon, in Ecuador, that was about a, uh, fictionalized, uh, cartel gang that had like a, a worship of, it was a, like, Catholic worship, but with like, um, Wildlands, which is the game. Pardon? Wildlands is why it's such a good game, and it's loosely based on a Mexican gang, and I think they just that gang that it was [00:20:00] loosely based in just had like a really nasty hit in Mexico within a couple of months of our recording, maybe even a couple of weeks. So that kind of stuff is still going on. Oh, yeah, for sure. You know, it's, um, I just thought that would be because it sounds totally like something that, you know, serial killers were doing, but it was actually a drug cartel that was doing it. I mean, and it shows you kind of like the blurry lines were like 100%. I would consider this guy a serial killer, but I mean, he was running a drug cartel. He was also running a call. It's just one of those outliers that kind of blurs the lines. Uh, yeah. Between, uh, what we were talking about earlier. Yeah, because it doesn't sound like the purpose of what they were doing had anything to do with their mob activity. So, um, I'm going to ask the judges to reconsider if we were actually wrong or not. I, yeah, I don't, I, to [00:21:00] me, you call them either one, right? I mean, you know, they're running the cartel to help fund the, the, uh, devil worshiping cults, you know, it's, uh, You know, I don't know, it's, it's crazy to me, like, people are so dismissive of stuff like the, just a little bit of a tangent, like, some of the stuff that, like, gets talked about, like, during the satanic panic, and then you, you know, you start digging into it a little bit, and you start realizing, it's like, well, I don't know, I mean, some people are acting crazy, but, like, a lot of the stuff, I don't know if they were acting totally crazy, you know, this would be something that, I think people would just dismiss out of hand if I had to say told somebody at work, I'm like, Oh yeah, did you know about this like devil worshiping drug cartel that was like ritualistically sacrificing human beings? It would have been like, Oh yeah, Chris, you're just, you're just pulling her leg. You're screwing around. You know, like that, that didn't happen. It's like, no, it did. And it probably is still going on now. I'm sure there's weird, like, secret societies in some of these cartels, they're so big, you know, it's very [00:22:00] difficult to probably, uh, you know, keep an eye on everything that's going on in them. I'd say give us a half a point for that one, 2. 5 to 2. 5. Yeah, I guess. Pays to complain. So, yeah, number four. Uh, here we have a man that was very meticulous about how he went about his work. This man carried a special toolkit around with him at all times that he would, uh, that would help him, uh, dismember bodies. He would make sure that each body part was either wrapped in plastic or were put in suitcases and buried deep enough so that dogs couldn't find them. This person had one weakness though, and that's, and that was he enjoyed, uh, keeping personal items of the victims that he killed. Was this a mob guy or was this a serial killer? Who's up for this one first? You got, you got evens. Okay. Um, you know, I think for me keeping the personal mementos, like everything, I [00:23:00] think any one of those things, or maybe like two or three of them could have been, Oh, that's a mafia guy. But I think the totality of that I'm going with serial killer. I should make a great point there, Steve. Um, you know, carrying the tool around sounds like a professional mob guy. That's just, you know, ready to rock and roll as soon as he needs to the meticulous nature of how he dismembered and stored the bodies and buried him. So they wouldn't be discovered, which is a little bit interesting because while serial killers tend to be really careful. Sometimes they get sloppy on purpose, like, I mean, they want people to know these people got killed and not know who did it. That's part of the power rush. So he's trying to avoid being, you know, being discovered, but that that keepsake thing, that is a hallmark of serial killers. So you are bang on there. So for the purposes of, uh, Breaking the tie one way or the other here, I am going to go with, uh, the mobster. Well, Frank, you're [00:24:00] right. Oh ho ho! It's, uh, Tommy Karate, who's a famous Bonanno, uh, hitman. He's also got the nickname Tommy Karate because he was really good at karate, too, and he studied in, uh, Japan and the whole deal, and he was really physically fit. Um, yeah. But he would keep personal items of the people that he killed, uh, which... That's totally a serial killer thing. He really enjoyed what he did, right? Um, I don't know, you know, was he, to me, that sounds like a serial killer. I mean, he was getting paid to do it. Um, but it's one of those examples where it's just like, oh, so was he a hitman or was he, you know, was he just a serial killer that was getting paid? I think the only thing that would make the difference in my mind in this situation here is, was he choosing his victims or are they being assigned to him? If they're being assigned to him, he's a serial killer. If he's just seeking him out, then obviously, or I'm sorry, if they're being assigned to him, he's a mobster. And then if he's [00:25:00] picking him himself, then that's a hobby, which makes him a serial killer. Um, that, that personal item thing though, that's a, yeah. That's, uh, uh, honestly, if I had gone first, I would have said, I would have said the same thing. Steve did. Yeah, that really is. I mean, that's, I guess that maybe if, did they, did you in your research, did you ever see a motivation for that? What was that? A, a thing to almost like. A trophy because I could see almost with the mafia person like wanting to keep a trophy of pride, but not in a in a sick way. I mean, that's sick no matter what, how you dice it. But it is a little different that he thought of himself. I mean, I'm really stretching here, but as a hunter, almost the. Well, I mean, I guess he could show people after the fact, it's like, yo, you remember, uh, you know, remember Tommy DeSimone or what have you, you know, you know, that necklace that he used to carry around with him on all the times and go look in that drawer right there, you know, I have [00:26:00] it, I'm, I'm sure he probably did that enough times, you know, he's the one who whacked Tommy DeSimone, no, I just used him as an example, I just used him as an example, it's like the first Italian name that came to my head, um, Um, but I'm sure he did that, you know, I mean, he killed a lot of people, he, he probably kept mementos for the same reason that a serial killer does. And it's a, it's a matter of having something physical to connect to the event to relive the fantasy and, and. You know, there's no reason he couldn't have been doing it for the same reason, uh, he, you know, what he was reliving might be a little different, but, uh, it sounds, sounds like it was the same purpose that those mementos were fulfilling. Boy, though, you couldn't, I would be hard pressed to believe that somebody like that didn't go and find people to kill outside of contracts. Yeah. Little side, little side hobby, maybe. Yeah. Trying to find his, uh, his total body count. Yeah, see I'm reading [00:27:00] here and it's um, they're saying as many as 60, you know, so obviously a lot of them were assigned, but some of them he was probably just did him on, did, did his own, right? Uh, I mean, what was the Green River Killer at? I mean, that's just him, Green River. What was he at, about 200? I 100? That sounds, that sounds right to me. There was some, when you get that high in a body count, there's always some, was this really by that person or wasn't it sort of discussion that starts taking place with some victims, you know, um, but he may have, he may have verified all of them. I don't recall. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean he did them right. He might have just decided to inflate his own body count. Yeah, so the Green River Killer, he was actually convicted of 49. Right, those were the slam dunk cases they had, yeah. And he confessed and is suspected of 71 to 90. So let's just say [00:28:00] 80, right? Uh, Tommy Karate killed 60. And he was killing guys that were, you know, legitimate tough guys, like other criminals. You know, he wasn't just picking on women. It's um, you know, it's fascinating. Um, 60 plus though, that's one of the highest in, in the history of the mob. It has to be. I mean, uh, Roy DeMille killed more. Harry Strauss killed more. I mean, Richard Kavinsky, whether you believe him or not, he obviously killed a lot of people himself. Um, you know, and you keep personal items of these people. I mean, I don't know. He's a serial killer. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's going on my, that's going on my point list. All right. So next question. Okay, I think so. Frank pulled ahead. Frank is at 3. 5 and I'm at 2. 5. This, I think this one will be a little bit easier. Here we have a man that would abduct younger women, where he would take them to his home and rape them. He would later release them in the wild, where he would hunt [00:29:00] them like wild animals, either shooting them or stabbing them. Was this a mob guy or a serial killer? How could this be a mob guy? This has got to be a serial killer. If this is a mob guy, then he's got a whole lot of, uh, flexibility from his boss and how he does his job. I, I mean, I have to go with serial killer too. Yeah, it is, uh, it's, uh, Robert, uh, Robert Hanson, who was, uh, the famous, uh, serial killer in Alaska, and that would, uh, I mean, I think there's been a couple of movies that kind of loosely based on him, but, uh, yeah, he was famous for, like, literally hunting his victims, like wild animals in the middle of Alaska, and then sometimes he'd just leave the bodies there, and then, you know, animals would come and, you know, take care of it. You know, the, uh, HBO show, True Detective, that. Uh, has a 4th season coming out with, uh. Jody Foster in the lead role. It's called night country and it's set up in Alaska. And this is, this is the kind of serial [00:30:00] killer that would be perfect for that kind of a show, you know, doing that kind of stuff. I don't know the plot. I have only seen a very vague preview of it, like a little teaser, 15 second preview or whatever, but it'd be kind of funny if this was actually the kind of the basis for their bad guy in season four. Yeah, a little like, sorry, just a little tangent. I was going to say, like, uh, you're talking about True Detectives, like the first season's the best. The second season was, uh, so so. I actually quite enjoyed the third season. A lot, actually. Most people figure it's one, one, three, two is their order of preference for the most part. And the, the third season reminds me a lot of, um, the Franklin credit union scandal, which is, uh, I mean, I don't know. Maybe one day we can go down that road because that was organized crime and punishment or lack thereof punishment. And it's a, it's a, it's a really, um, big conspiracy, but sorry, what were you saying, Steve? Alaska is such a like [00:31:00] perfect setting for some for a serial killer. The backwoods, the creepiness of either being all day or all night. I mean, you couldn't imagine the chances of finding if you're in the backwoods or probably anywhere between. Uh, any, anything other than like two cities, there's never gonna be a cop to help you or anything. I mean, I couldn't imagine. I mean, that's why like some of the creepiest ones have happened in places like Russia. Because it's just open season. Oh yeah, for sure, you know, like, I mean, there's so many, there's so few people there, this guy could just release women that he had just raped in the wild and have them go run and scream and literally no one's gonna hear them. That's how isolated much of Alaska is from everything else. It's, uh, yeah, it's a perfect setting for, you know, like a sick cycle like that. Definitely sick. I mean, just on so many levels. You know, so I guess, uh... We'll go on to [00:32:00] question six. This one, I think that maybe this one you guys might have a little difficulty with. While awaiting his death sentence, uh, by hanging, this person said this as their final words. Hurry it up, you, uh, Hoosier bat. How do you pronounce that? Hoosier? Hoosier. Hoosier? Hoosier. Is that like an American thing, or? Hoosier. It's in Indiana. It's, uh, Indiana, right? Yeah. For the basketball. Yeah. It's the, it's the, it's like, uh, like it's a type of person from the early settlers days, I think, isn't it? Uh, when, when they first started settling Indiana, they became known as Hoosiers and then became the. Motto for the sports teams. Laters. I should probably Google that so that I don't sound like an idiot. It's actually a flower or something. Yeah. I think that sounds a legitimate. I told you while waiting, uh, his death sentence by hanging. This person said as their last final [00:33:00] words. Um, yes, hurry it up. You, uh, who's your bastard. I could kill a dozen men while you're, while you're screwing around one. Was this a mob guy's last words or was this a serial killer's last words? And so this one's on me. Oh man, I am going to say serial killer just because not a ton of mafia guys got the, the death penalty that I've read. At least, I mean, some did and. I, I never heard of a, that seems like a major one that would come out of Indiana. So I am going to go serial killer for this one. And what, what do you think, Frank? Yeah, I'm mulling around whether I want to go opposites again and risk letting Steven catch up here. Uh, do you risk letting him catch up or do you pull into the lead by two? Um. You know, the, what he said there sounds very much like something a mobster would say, you know, I [00:34:00] mean, uh, but yeah, I'm going to chicken out. I think it's a serial killer as well. Well, you're both right. Uh, this was, uh, Carl Panzer Rams, uh, last words and Carl Panzer Rams, like one of the early, uh, American serial killers, but he's also another guy that kind of blurs the line a little bit. Cause he was also like a criminal. So, like, he would rob people, and he had, like, all different types of little scams, but, um, he also, like, killed a lot of people, and he was, like, tough as nails. He actually wrote a book, um, which is a very interesting read, because for a guy that was not... Very well educated, he's actually a pretty good writer, he has this like, uh, it's very, kind of, really kind of perfectly exemplifies like somebody who basically took like a nihilistic worldview and just basically took it to its logical conclusion, really, um, it's a very, uh, blunt way of writing, but it, It's it's actually really [00:35:00] effective. I've read it. Um, and yeah, he's, uh, he's pretty fascinating guy. Like I said, he's kind of a criminal, but he's also a serial killer. He claims that he was in Africa for a bit. He was, uh. He was a homosexual, even though I'm pretty sure he denied that he was a homosexual, but he almost exclusively just had sex with men, um, or, or sodomize them as he said it, because that's basically what he was doing was raping men, uh, and killing them afterwards sometimes, but not all the time, um, or one point, I think he had this crazy idea that he was, he was so pissed off at this one town, uh, they'd screwed him over somehow, and he was just going to poison their entire, uh, Water reservoir and just kill them all and they never, they never actually happened, but he talked about doing it. Uh, he actually robbed, uh. It was, uh, President Taft's house at one point and stole a revolver from it. I don't know, for the audience, just [00:36:00] look this guy up. It's, he's got a really crazy story and, like, he's probably got, like, probably the best last words out of all the... serial killers. I mean, you know, not to make Casey sound cool or anything, but like Casey said, kiss my ass, which, I mean, I got to give it to him. He just straight up just said, kiss my ass. So, um, a lot of these guys, like, I don't know, like their last moments, they'd be like, go like, I don't know, like either they don't say anything or, you know, express kind of some kind of regret, or I don't know. You know, Panzer I was like, you know what? Just kill me. Like, I'm just gonna keep on doing this. And like, Casey's just like, you know, like, screw you guys. There's a certain degree you can kind of respect that, um, in a perverse kind of way. I mean, they're just people with no remorse, no regret, no human decency. I think that that's, it's an interesting, uh, uh, word. It's an interesting way, uh, thing to look at is these people who are [00:37:00] just totally remorseless and The different areas, some of them do, uh, go to full blown organized crime and they sort of find a legitimate, be illegal, but more legitimate outlet to these feelings and then other people find one that's just totally, uh, totally off the wall and anti social. I guess anti social is maybe the word? Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, I think a lot of these mob guys, uh, Have extremely anti social personality disorders. Not all of them, but I think a lot of them do. I think that's how you kind of end up finding yourself in a situation where you're, you know, joining a secret society that, you know, commits crimes and views down on the rest of everyone. Not part of your little clique, right? Clear sign that that guy's antisocial is to give, is that given everything he did, all the terrible things that he did to people, all the pain he inflected, how awful a person he was. He somehow thought calling somebody from [00:38:00] Indiana, who's your bastard was, was, was an insult. That's the lame. I'm going to, I'm going to put him in the lame category when it comes to final last words, but So it's like a fascinating life in a, you know, in a car wreck. What did I leave out on this? That there were people there at the time they were protesting, they were against the death penalty. And Karl Panzer apparently was like yelling at these people being like, like, what's the matter with you? It's like, I want to die. Like, I can't. I'm just gonna keep on doing this, like, what are you people, like, what are you people even arguing about this? There's like, people showing up to like, basically his death sentence, like, arguing, like, Please don't kill this man, and, and, he's like, basically telling them, it's like, just bugger off, like, we just, you guys are slowing this down. Like, it's, you know, which is like, um, Trying to, Martin Goldstein, which is like [00:39:00] the, we were doing the Murder, Inc. series, which is the exact opposite. He just turned into like a full on coward where he's just like, please don't do it. And he's acting all hysterical. And I mean, I don't know how I would react in that situation, but. I mean, I'd like to think you wouldn't kill anybody in the first place, Chris, you know, like, uh, yeah, I mean, like the death sentence or what have you, right? It's, um, Carl pans around. It's like, you know, it's like, I don't know. He faced it like a man, right? Or Martin Goldstein was, uh, like a coward, right? You know, pretending like he didn't do all these horrible things that clearly You know, did do and bragged about, so that, that, that, that, that could be, that could be a little bit the difference between a serial killer and a mob hit man. Right? I mean, Bob hit man, you know, the reason that they're doing it is, is a little different. And when they get caught, they, you know, they could turn coward like that. I don't think too many serial killers have, have [00:40:00] done anything other than, you know, Try to beat their case, maybe, but they've embraced their role. A lot of times. I mean, it's like, all right, I'm caught. I might as well get as much infamy out of this as possible and let people know how quote unquote awesome I am, you know, and, and I, I, I just think it's another difference. You could point out. I don't know that every hit man turns into a cry baby. I'm not saying that, but I haven't seen many serial killers who have, uh, just one or two. Yeah. to mind first, maybe. Per se turn into a cry baby, but like Ted Bundy, you know, he started saying, Oh, like I started watching pornography when I was young and this is why I like let it into this and this happened to me. And it's just like, yeah. And he tried to string it along with, uh, I'll tell you where this body is and I'll tell you where that body is, but, you know, trying to keep himself alive. We had a serial killer up in Spokane, um, back in the, in the nineties. Um, That that might make for an interesting discussion sometime, but, [00:41:00] uh, Robert Lee Yates is his name and he was a big blubbering baby at his sentencing. Um, so, you know, but his cover story was, you know, upstanding community member, family man, you know, and all that. And so, you know, he. He had his roll down. I mean, I think they're all sociopaths, you know, in the same way that Tony Soprano is a sociopath, you know, they learn how to pretend to be, uh, normal people who have emotions and react appropriately to whatever's going on. Um, so I don't know if he was legitimately upset or not. I kind of doubt it, but he sure did put on a show. Blubbering like a baby. I think you could almost say Jeffrey Dahmer at his trial. Like, maybe he was somebody who just could not fight his compulsions. And, um, when he had to finally stop after getting busted, it all, it all did hit him. What he was doing was so awful. So, like, I watched that [00:42:00] Netflix series, the Dahmer one that everyone was watching, and they tried, I don't know, they tried to make it seem like, like, his whole family situation was, like, really messed up, and, like, yeah, his mom had, like, mental health problems that he probably inherited a bit. from because some of that stuff is passed on genetically. But like, I mean, the truth of the matter is, like, Dahmer didn't have anything that was like, it's not like he was abused as a kid, or his dad was bad to him, or even his mom, right? Like, I, he's one of those cases where, like, I think he was, like, just born like that. And. You know, if we had people that could notice things earlier, like, um, Dahmer should have institutionalized film pretty much like, right from the get go. That, that, that, well, that, that infrastructure just isn't there to, to, to do that preventatively. Unfortunately, I was just going to express a little disgust for. For the inconsistency with which Netflix has been producing historical documentaries and docudramas and stuff. There's some really good stuff on there. The stuff about the Roman Empire and the stuff [00:43:00] about the Ottoman Empire is really well done if a bit dramatized. But there's some things on there. I mean, I didn't watch the Dahmer one. The reviews I read on it that that talked about the historicity of it were rather critical. Um, so that was my biggest complaint, right? Um, My wife like likes slut stuff. So I, I just ended up watching So with her, and I'm just, I don't know. I'm just sitting there, I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, I mean, is this really something that like the vast majority of people should be watching? Like, I'm literally watching a guy fry up, up and flesh and, you know, like it's I don't know, like maybe I'm just, I don't know. Like I, maybe this is just something that shouldn't be popular. I don't, I'm just saying that out loud. Well, and you, you talk about the concept of justice and the different kinds of justice, uh, that exist. And, you know, on a karmic level, I guess justice was served on him in more than one way. I mean, he, he didn't last very long in the prison system after being convicted. I wonder if Jeffrey Dahmer was the type of person where it was [00:44:00] almost like a perfect storm, where His family life was kind of messed up, his dad was checked out, like you said, his mom had mental illness, like if somebody had caught him early and got him into counseling and dealt with those issues before they really took off, if they, if he might not have done what he did, it's just that he just continuously slipped through the cracks. See, I don't, I think there's some people like in Dahmer's, I don't think there's a lot of them, but I think somebody like Dahmer is just, there's something is that maybe we just don't understand it yet. But there, I don't think any amount of counseling was going to fix that guy. Like, I think he was going to end up doing what he did 1 way or another. I mean, like Frank said, we just don't have that kind of preventative, uh, infrastructure in place for, correct. You know, there's certain things that you could see and you catch it right away. And I mean, should have been, I mean, we used to put people in institutions a [00:45:00] lot more quickly than we do now. I mean, I think that's one of the problems we have now is we don't, we don't put people in institutions. Um, I just, I don't think there was any fixing to armor. I think like almost right from the get go, there'll be something seriously wrong with this guy. And unfortunately, not only do we not have. Preventative, uh, mechanisms in place to any great degree, but even our reactive mechanisms in the, in the structure supporting it, the infrastructure there is, is pretty overtaxed and pretty limited. So, a guy like him can pretty easily slip through the system. Um, when I was teaching leadership after I retired from, from law enforcement for a few years, I, you always teach with the almost always taught with another instructor. And, um, I, I taught with a captain from, uh, Milwaukee, um, and, uh, she had some interesting stories to tell regarding that time period and, and, and, and how they screwed up with Dahmer and [00:46:00] then places where they were getting accused of screwed up where they didn't, and where they're getting let off the hook, where they screwed up and it was kind of an interesting kind of secondhand story to hear rather than, you know, a Netflix, maybe not very accurate show. So we're at 4. 5 for Frank and I'm, uh, still stuck at 3. 5. Steve here again with a quick word from our sponsors. Yeah, so, here we have a group of men that would lure, uh, a group of men that would lure men To an apartment and a bar that they own. They would shoot, then wrap a towel around his head, point blank to help contain some of the bleeding. Once that was done, they would stab the man in the heart to slow down the bleeding. Oh no, we're not done yet. They would hang the body up afterwards and cut it into small pieces that would be scattered around various dumps in the city. Was this, uh, the work of, um, mob [00:47:00] guys or serial killers? Okay, so clarification request here. Uh, this is something that occurred on more than one occasion. This is not a singular event. This happened multiple times. Okay. Well, it sounds like it sounds very serial killer esque, but, uh, I think you're trying to trick me, Chris. I think this is a mob thing. I think they just picked the people that they. Thought needed to to disappear and then they did it in a way that made a statement. So this is your opportunity Steve I'm in the kind of in the same spot in the reverse Do I go with what at my gut or do I go with the opposite to try and get caught up? I'm going with mafia on this one Yeah, well, basically what I described is, yeah, mob hit, uh, this is what's, this is called the Gemini Method that, uh, Rory Dembao and the, uh, Gemini, Gemini crew made famous. Yeah, they would lure guys, uh, apartment that was in the back of the [00:48:00] bar, and they came up with this elaborate system to basically... You know, contain as much of the, uh, the blood and the, uh, the mess that comes with killing people. And this is like kind of through trial and error too, right? Like they figured after doing it a couple of times, they're like, Oh, if we wrap a towel around the head right away, like it contains most of the bleeding. And then it's like, well, how do we slow down? Like just the bleeding itself. It's like, Oh, we're going to stab a guy in the heart. And then the, uh. You know, if we hang it up, then, you know, you run the water and the blood just goes down the drain. And then the body parts, you know, they learned, uh, they learned, uh, got to throw them around different dumps around the city. And then once it goes to the dump, they're almost next to impossible to find. And I mean, I think they learned, uh, 1 time they, they found torso 1 time, and then they learned, oh, wait, we forgot to, uh. Stab lungs. Uh, otherwise the the lungs will, uh, help the torso float back up. But if you stab them enough times, they'll [00:49:00] just sink to the bottoms they fill up with the water. Right? Um, yeah. This is kind of, they've discovered this method through trial and error. Once they perfected it. Uh, the rest is history. I mean, they became probably the most efficient, uh, mob killing machine in history. You know, some people put the body counts for the, the, um, the Gemini crew up to, you know, 250, which is just insane. Holy cow. 250 people, you know, it was a group of guys that were doing it, but Roy DeMeo was, uh, um, personally involved in most of these killings. And it was over a fairly short amount of time too, wasn't it? Yeah, it was, uh, not that long. It was, uh, it was more than just, say, like, a couple of years, but, uh, Yeah, it was, uh, you know, it was a fairly quick, um, I mean, technically, a lot of these guys, they kind of go super overboard with the killing, like, say, like, the Gemini crew, uh, they don't tend to last super long, but, um, yeah. You know, it wasn't wasn't over, [00:50:00] like, say, like, 40 years or 30 years or anything like that. Uh, you know, Roy DeMille would end up getting killed by his, uh, his mafia partners. But yeah, you know, it's crazy to think like, you know, 250 people, maybe, who knows? Could be more, you know, a lot of these bodies they never found. They're never going to find them. Like, uh, at one point they were thinking, well, actually just start digging up. The dump to try to find parts and I think they did it for like a week and they're like, we're not, we're not going to find anything, not an apartment. That was an abattoir and those dumps. I mean, it's, it's honestly a smart place to go because those dumps and most metropolitan areas, I mean, they're getting Feet of garbage a day. I mean, and it, there's usually not a lot of other places to move the garbage to other places. And so if you don't let people, if you don't let them dump in that dump, it causes a major problem. So that, uh, that you couldn't stop filling a [00:51:00] dump for a week. To go digging around in there, if you even, you know, maybe a place like the NYPD would have the resources to even do that. Yeah, but any place that would have the resources would also live in an area that had, has a dump that huge than that, you know, that daunting of a task. So, I mean, it's probably all relative in that regard. It is a smart place to go. And the dismemberment is, is such a smart thing too. I mean, even today with, with DNA. It's still a smart way to get rid of a body. That's, that's amazing to me that that was that number that they cranked out. That, you know, it's, it's, it's up for debate how many they actually did. I've, uh, I've heard different numbers, but you know, let's just call it, I'd say 200, yeah, 200 or pretty. Pretty darn close to 200 bodies, which is while they and considering like, 1 of the 1st ones that they ended up doing, they almost got caught where I think it was like a thigh of 1 person that they, they dumped in a [00:52:00] dump. And this homeless guy saw this thing wrapped up in like meat wrapping packaging and thinking like, uh, oh, like, I scored big, like, look at the size of this piece of meat. So then apparently when he, he opened it up, he realized pretty quickly that it was, uh, yeah. And, uh, he confirmed it because there was like a tattoo on it. So they started, uh, started using like, um, you know, like the knives that you like scale fish and stuff like that to, uh, get the tattoos off and any kind of identifiable, uh, markings. And what kind of world was that where people didn't notice that maybe, uh, several people a month went into the Gemini lounge, but never left. Yeah, it's not the Hotel California. I mean, come on, you know, they only think a lot of the times they were just taking out other criminals and they were also taking out like criminals ended up becoming informants and, you know, like the DeMayo crew. You know, they had cops on the [00:53:00] inside, right? They were feeding this, feeding them this information. So they, they must have known, had a pretty good idea. Like, oh, where did so and so go? It's like, oh, we don't know. Type, type thing, right? And there was a lot of people that are making money off of them too, right? Because they, they're big, uh, Their big score was running, uh, um, well, they ran drugs and they ran, they did pornography, but their biggest, I guess, I guess the thing that they're most famous for is the stolen cars, um, like mass stealing cars and, uh, chopping them up or repurposing them. And at one point, like he literally was an international criminal where he was like shipping cars. I believe is, uh, if I'm remembering correctly, it was, uh, to do, uh, United Arab Emirates. And, like, to the point where they're like, I want a Toyota Camry with, that's red, with these types of rims. And, that's how, like, sophisticated this car theft operation was. So, there's a lot of people that are getting kickbacks. You know, it's like, oh, we're all making money, and, you know, you know, this person's [00:54:00] gonna screw that up. And, I'm assuming that's, that's probably, that's probably exactly why it was allowed to go on for as long as it was. Everyone was making too much money off of it. It's crazy. People are ticked. Terrified of Rory DeMille, because they knew what happened at the Gemini Lounge. Alright, so 5. 5 to 4. 5. Now we're at the final question. Here, here we have a group of men that captured and tortured a man for hours. Then after they thought he, he was, uh, killed, they buried him in a shallow grave. It turned out that he wasn't dead, and was actually buried alive. Was this, uh, the work of, uh, the mob, or serial killers? That sounds like a, a story I've heard of. And I want to say it is the mob. Yeah, it, it, it comes across to me as, as a little bit of a, an incompetent hit more than it does a, uh, a serial killer. I mean, [00:55:00] and I mentioned earlier that only 10% of. Serial killers are duos. So the group of men part kind of puts me more towards the mafia angle angle as well. So mob. It is. So, yeah, this was done by the mob. And, uh, actually you can revisit this, uh, this murder. Actually, this is the 1 that, uh, a brellis and his crew committed against 1 of the Shapiro brothers where. They were burying him and, um, somebody, uh, pedestrian happened to see kind of what they were doing. And so they hadn't, they didn't actually finish the job fully. Pretty sure they, they thought he was dead. But, uh, when they exhumed the body, the, uh, the doctors realized, uh, pretty quickly that, um, no, this man had been, uh, buried alive. Which is horrible way to go. Trying to think, think about, um, I don't know whether felt , you gotta hope afterwards or, or not, but you gotta hope the guy was at least like, [00:56:00] unconscious from his injuries and didn't, you know, wasn't aware of what was going on there as he was smothered essentially. 'cause that's just a horrible, that that's terrible. It's one of the worst mob killings I'm aware of, really is. Buried alive. We'll probably get into this at some point, but the real person who Joe Pesci played in Casino, I think he was buried alive too. Him and his brother. Out in the desert. Yeah, or in a cornfield. I don't, but it was that, um, that's bad. That's pretty, I mean, but it gets, I mean, that's, you're doing that full out of full hatred. Yeah. And then there's like other mob guys, uh, we've talked about them before. I mean, Anthony, uh, Gas Pipe Caso, where you go and this guy sounds like a serial killer. Like even the FBI, when they were thinking about using him as an informant, like they heard him like laughing about killing people. And I think it was one. He claims to a, [00:57:00] some drug runner or whatever that, uh, he screwed up or he was going to inform or he was going to say something. And it was like down in Florida. And he trying to remember this story correctly, but I believe he claimed that he buried this guy alive too. And he was like laughing about it. And this is when the FBI goes, it said to them. So it's like, there's no, no, we can't do that. We can't do this with this guy. I'm like, we, I know we did it with Sammy the bowl. But, uh, like, this guy's just, it's too much. It's too far. It makes us look bad. I mean, Sammy the Bull Gravano made them look bad too, but this guy's going to make us like, look really bad. Because they, you, I don't know, you talk, you read about, uh, somebody like, like, Gas Pipe Caso and you go, like, this guy was like, yeah, he was a mob, he wasn't a mob, but he was like, right underneath the mob boss, but it was kind of him and his, uh, partner were like, cold mob bosses. I mean, was this guy a serial killer or not? Like, I've read his blog. Um, Philip Carlo wrote it, and you listen to this guy talk about himself, and he's, he sounds like a serial [00:58:00] killer because he's just completely delusional about who he is. Like, he's just like, just like, almost virtually zero self awareness. I could be, that's how it comes, came across to me. Well, Frank snuck ahead right above at the got across the finish line and he wins at 5. 5 to 4. 5. Well, uh, I'm very interested to hear how our friends, the friends of ours at home did on this, uh, game. So definitely send in. On social media, email crime at a two z history page. com or all the other ways to get in contact because I'd be very interested to hear how you did on the game. And if you'd like to hear more episodes like this. 5. 5 score to beat. Yeah. 5. 5. Let's got to be, got to be some experts out there that can do that. That's a, that's, that's not that difficult. [00:59:00] You know, what occurred to me as we're talking about this, that all of these folks are sociopaths. Um, maybe some of the hit men that. Did it once or twice or whatever, backed into a corner sort of thing, you could make an argument that they weren't. But anybody who has a body count of any magnitude, they're sociopath. The biggest difference between these two hit men and serial killers is that when you make a movie about a serial killer, they're the bad guy. When you make a movie about a mafia hit man, he's the good guy. Yeah, there's definitely something to say about, about that. Yeah, you know, pretty accurate observation. So we're going to leave it at that. Uh, we definitely would love to hear your feedback. And the biggest thing you can do to help us is tell your friends about organized crime and punishment so that your friends can become friends of ours. Yeah. Forget about it, guys. Yeah, forget about it.[01:00:00] You've been listening to Organized Crime and Punishment, a history and crime podcast. To learn more about what you heard today, find links to social media, and how to support the show, go to our website, AtoZHistoryPage. com. Become a friend of ours by sending us an email to crime at AtoZHistoryPage. com. All of this and more can be found in the show notes. We'll see yous next time on Organized Crime and Punishment. Forget about it.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Coming Soon on Organized Crime and Punishment! You can learn more about Organized Crime and Punishment and subscribe at all these great places: https://atozhistorypage.start.page www.organizedcrimeandpunishment.com Click to Subscribe: https://omny.fm/shows/organized-crime-and-punishment/playlists/podcast.rss email: crime@atozhistorypage.com Parthenon Podcast Network Home: parthenonpodcast.com On Social Media: https://www.youtube.com/@atozhistory https://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypage https://facebook.com/atozhistorypage https://twitter.com/atozhistorypage https://www.instagram.com/atozhistorypage/ Music Provided by: Music from "5/8 Socket" by Rico's Gruv Used by permission. © 2021 All Rights Reserved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=210vQJ4-Ns0 https://open.spotify.com/album/32EOkwDG1YdZwfm8pFOzUuSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Who are people from the past whose lives are so cinematic that they deserve their own movie, but haven't received the right silver screen treatment, such as, say, Abraham Lincoln from Steven Spielberg or Napoleon Bonaparte from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. Hosts from different shows on the Parthenon Podcast Network are here to discuss this question, including Steve Guerra (History of the Papacy), Richard Lim (This American President), yours truly, and Mark Vinet (History of North America).See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Coming Soon on Organized Crime and Punishment! You can learn more about Organized Crime and Punishment and subscribe at all these great places: https://atozhistorypage.start.page www.organizedcrimeandpunishment.com Click to Subscribe: https://omny.fm/shows/organized-crime-and-punishment/playlists/podcast.rss email: crime@atozhistorypage.com Parthenon Podcast Network Home: parthenonpodcast.com On Social Media: https://www.youtube.com/@atozhistory https://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypage https://facebook.com/atozhistorypage https://twitter.com/atozhistorypage https://www.instagram.com/atozhistorypage/ Music Provided by: Music from "5/8 Socket" by Rico's Gruv Used by permission. © 2021 All Rights Reserved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=210vQJ4-Ns0 https://open.spotify.com/album/32EOkwDG1YdZwfm8pFOzUuSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Coming Soon on Organized Crime and Punishment! You can learn more about Organized Crime and Punishment and subscribe at all these great places: https://atozhistorypage.start.page www.organizedcrimeandpunishment.com Click to Subscribe: https://omny.fm/shows/organized-crime-and-punishment/playlists/podcast.rss email: crime@atozhistorypage.com Parthenon Podcast Network Home: parthenonpodcast.com On Social Media: https://www.youtube.com/@atozhistory https://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypage https://facebook.com/atozhistorypage https://twitter.com/atozhistorypage https://www.instagram.com/atozhistorypage/ Music Provided by: Music from "5/8 Socket" by Rico's Gruv Used by permission. © 2021 All Rights Reserved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=210vQJ4-Ns0 https://open.spotify.com/album/32EOkwDG1YdZwfm8pFOzUuSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.